Debates of Sept. 16th, 1996

Criminal Code

[Maurice Bernier, Bloc, Mégantic—Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to commend the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce on his speech. It is refreshing to hear such comments in the House.

I would like to say that I wanted to speak in this debate not as an expert or a lawyer-God forbid, I do not have those qualifications-but as one who would put this debate into the perspective of a better society. I think that is the objective we have in mind. That is what I heard in what was said by the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce and by those of my colleagues who spoke before me, with the exception, of course, of our Reform Party colleagues who see a return to the death sentence, and nothing else, as the only solution in this context.

The Bloc Quebecois is opposed to Bill C-45 now before the House for the fundamental reasons that were explained previously. What we object to in the government's handling of this bill is this eagerness to respond to a section of the population that asks for a stricter rule for conditional release measures, and meanwhile there is no opportunity for genuine debate in which all points of view can be heard and no opportunity to make a decision which, as I said at the beginning of my speech, would have the effect of improving the society in which we live.

This afternoon I heard the hon. member for Wild Rose expose the views of the victims. With all due respect for our Reform Party colleague, who is entitled to his opinion-and he certainly presented a point of view shared by other people and especially by the families of murder victims-nevertheless it does not represent the general view or the consensus that exists among the public and especially in Quebec.

I would like to take the next few minutes to give you the victims' point of view. These are also parents who lost their child in horrific circumstances. On June 30 this year in Sherbrooke, a young girl, Isabelle Bolduc, was kidnapped. Subsequently, it was found that three individuals were involved. For several days she suffered indescribable agony. There is evidence that she was raped, and then finally killed in circumstances I would rather not mention.

Again, she suffered indescribable agony. Nobody will deny it, certainly not her parents, nor her friends. In a similar situation, if my daughter or my son were to meet such a fate, I would be inclined to wish a similar fate on the perpetrators of such a crime. On occasion, I have imagined I could take justice into my own hands, dealing with these individuals the way they had dealt with a member of my family.

But if you give it some thought, do you really want to go back to the wild West, as some would have us do? Are we going to solve this problem once and for all? Are we going to make our society better? Of course not. We are not going to get rid of violence through violence.

To go back to the example we had in our area this summer, the victim's father, Marcel Bolduc, whom I know personally, and who has been and still is devastated by his daughter's death, set up a foundation, the Isabelle Bolduc foundation, together with friends of the family, shortly after these events; this foundation is at work in the Eastern Townships and throughout Quebec, circulating a petition to tighten the parole system.

Mr. Bolduc, in spite of pressure from some people around him and in his area, has refused to consider the death penalty as a solution to such crimes.

The goal of the Isabelle Bolduc foundation is to improve the system. It wants to make a suggestion to parliamentarians, not for their immediate debate, but for their consideration over the coming months. The Isabelle Bolduc foundation would like to launch a pilot project in the Eastern Townships whereby individuals would participate in the decisions of the parole board. It wants to create a watchdog committee comprising ordinary citizens whose function would be to review the decisions, the reasoning, the process and the follow-up on all decisions made by the parole board.

We are certainly not calling for the reinstatement of capital punishment. Let me remind you that one of the originators of this proposal is the father of Isabelle Bolduc, the victim of a crime in our region.

This is what we should be thinking about during a debate like this one. We must ask ourselves what we can do to improve the situation. The Isabelle Bolduc foundation is proposing one means of doing that. I know a request has been presented to the justice minister to have the pilot project implemented as soon as possible. I hope he will agree, because this is the only way to improve the situation.

What the foundation is asking for is very simple. People know, they are convinced that rehabilitation is the best way to go in this area, and I agree. Every effort possible must be made so that these individuals who have committed odious crimes-let us not mince our words-can hopefully go back into society one day and live normal lives.

Sure, there are hard cases. When we refer to the example that was used to introduce this bill, the Clifford Olson case, that is a hard case. It is about monsters that no one wants to see out, on the street.

Several murders were committed for a variety of reasons, but several of these murderers were able to be rehabilitated, with some support and supervision. That is what parents of victims wish for. That is what is happening now, in our region.

I want to point out, I repeat and I insist upon demonstrating that there are not only individuals who wish to get their revenge in our society. There are ordinary people, no law experts-I have nothing against these-who are thinking and want to propose their own solutions.

Mr. Speaker, since you are indicating that my time is up, I will conclude simply by expressing the hope that the government will take into consideration the suggestions that were made by the official opposition to improve its bill, and also the suggestions made to it by the Fondation Isabelle Bolduc to improve society.

[Ted McWhinney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise in support of Bill C-45, at the same time to ask the House to reject the six amendments that have been proposed.

I would like to take this opportunity to signal the sensitiveness of the government to debate in this House. It is worth recording in respect to two private members' measures that came before us which touched, somewhat peripherally in one case but nevertheless in the spirit, on the bill now before the House. The member for York South, if members remember, had his own private member's bill in relation to section 745 of the Criminal Code.

I and government members supported this private members' bill as a vehicle for conveying to the government the feeling that in striking the balance among conflicting interests, the balance had shifted perhaps a little too far away from the protection of the community, and that it was time to make a correction.

We have all moved a long way, of course, from those antique conceptions of the 19th century when the only aim of criminal law was to punish the offender. It was not a very effective measure of social control and we have moved to other methods that more closely study society.

In this sense the government has recognized that in spite of the statistics showing crime is on the decrease, there has been an increase in the intensity of certain types of crime; mass crime, serial crimes and that a tightening of community controls is warranted here. This explains the elaborate screening devices that have been set up here. It is a response to the sentiment that this House expressed.

By the same token, the member for Saint-Hubert brought forward an excellent private members' bill in the spring which I and other government members supported. It was addressed, really, to the issue of protection of witnesses or victims in criminal trials.

It has been noted that many of the accused took the opportunity of further harassing their victims by vicious forms of cross examination. I would have thought, as a jurist, that could have been corrected by judicial action. A judge, after all, is there to protect the community, which includes the victims. Nevertheless, the bill meets this problem.

I am interested to note the debate in Great Britain in the last week on a very similar problem with exaggerated circumstances. Here, in this bill, it is certainly a design of the government to prevent persons who have been convicted and who are using the system under section 745 as an extra form of harassing victims' families.

There have been such cases noted and it is good that the government has tried to close the door on that type of situation. It does represent a response to the spirit the member for Saint-Hubert brought forward in her excellent private member's bill.

In another way also, we have responded to the situation of victims of crimes. This is not the 19th century. It is certainly not the earlier pre-common law period in the history of our law in which vengeance was the motive of the criminal law and the victims had the right of exacting sanctions. Not at all. It is a recognition that the viewpoint of the victims is a legitimate factor in considering the issue of sentencing, that it is a legitimate factor in considering the aspect of parole.

I am reminded that years before I entered this Chamber as a lawyer, as a sometime juris-counsel, I was approached by the family of one of the victims of a mass murderer in the Vancouver area, the Rosenfeldt family, the husband, the wife and their lawyer. They raised the agonizing tribulations they had been through while their child's fate was unknown. They have devoted a life since to attention to criminal law and attention to protecting society and at the same time ensuring that victims' views are properly presented in a way compatible with our legal traditions and our legal spirit.

I notice here that in a very proper and balanced way, the attitudes of victims' families can be presented in the government's bill.

There is a response by the government to a feeling as expressed in this House on both sides, that the shifting balance in criminal law needs correcting in terms of a stronger protection of society based on the increase in intensity of crimes, if not in the actual percentage of crimes. I think this is recognized in the structured

system that introduces the judge, the jury determination and the insistence, which is the history of the common law, of unanimous jury decisions before a parole board can operate. This is a good response again to the sentiment expressed in this House.

As for the point I have made again that the parole application should not be used by a vicious criminal without repentance as a method of further harassing victims' families, this is contained and overcome by the structured system of preventing purely frivolous applications for parole. Finally allowing the victims in a way that is sensitive to the duties of all us to society to express their opinions on criminality on the particular case before the court, I think this is reflected in the bill.

For these reasons I suggest with respect to those members who have taken the care to offer these amendments that the amendments be rejected and the bill as presented be adopted.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, when I spoke earlier on Bill C-45, which would make changes to section 745 of the Criminal Code, a provision which allows murderers to apply for early parole, I gave seven reasons why I did not believe this bill should be passed by the House.

To my utter amazement those very cogent and well argued reasons were ignored by the House and by the government, and this bill is back before us today. There are a few amendments proposed, most of which would water down the bill even more. Because I believe this bill is a bad bill and not in the interest of Canada, I do not think it should be passed at all, amended or not.

I would like to place even more reasons, more thought and more argument before this House to try to persuade my colleagues to vote against this terrible piece of legislation.

I remind the House of the forgotten lives which we really should be considering as we talk about what should happen to convicted killers. A lot of these families and loved ones of murdered Canadians are asking who really got life. Of course the answer is the victims but not just the victims. For the families, friends and those who cared about them who were left behind their privacy and emotional well-being is being discarded by the consideration and the tender concern for giving hope and giving every consideration to cold-blooded premeditated murderers. We have to ask why these shattered family lives are not higher on the priority list of people in elected positions who consider and call themselves compassionate.

The wife of a murdered policeman said: "He took away our future when he shot my husband. My daughter has been without a father. The last review was quite hard. We had to relive his death. It was like losing my husband all over again. The pain is unbearable. I have been worrying about this since he became eligible to apply again".

The system allows brutal killers to continually cause havoc in the lives of the families left behind and extra pain and suffering beyond the murder of a loved one. We need to put a stop to that.

This bill violates the truth and justice, which we should demand and expect of our justice system. The people who loved and cared for murdered Canadians really believed the sentence that was handed down, life in prison with no possibility of parole for at least 25 years.

Then they come to find out that in fact it is not life in prison, it is only 25 years maximum, and rather than there being no eligibility for parole before 25 years, murderers are eligible after only 15 years. They feel betrayed by that and they have a right to expect transparency in what is said by the courts and in the sentences and penalties that are handed down.

The justice minister has been saying for months that section 745 was under review, leaving many people who had been asking for greater justice to believe that something substantial was going to be done to respond to their demands that murderers not be let out of prison early. The net effect of this bill is to continue to allow convicted killers to walk our streets after only 15 years if their application for early parole is successful. Only multiple murderers will actually serve 25 years. That is just a few years for each of the people who were brutally killed by that person.

Of the 70 killers who have applied for early parole so far-and remember that the section has only been in effect since the seventies-75 per cent of the applicants won early parole. These killers also have the right to apply more than once.

We have to ask if we treat murder lightly, why should not criminals? If only a few years is the result of taking somebody's life, in the view of most Canadians that is not a sufficient deterrent.

The emphasis should not be on the accused, the convicted person or the criminal. The emphasis should be on the protection of society, law-abiding citizens, our families and our communities. Section 745 is costly for law-abiding citizens. The estimates range anywhere from half a million to a million dollars for a single review.

Now, of course, there will be more layers of appeal laid on top of the ones already available because a superior court judge must now hear everything and decide whether the applicant has a chance for success. Then, if the criminal does not like the decision of the superior court judge, that can be appealed and appealed again. It is all at taxpayers' expense. All of this is at the expense of hard working, decent Canadians who are looking for justice and safety for their families.

The bill provides hope for those least deserving. It has no business being placed before Canadians who are asking for the opposite.

Using taxpayer funded legal aid resources in a bid to have debts to society reduced is simply not acceptable. No amount of time served is enough to replace or to pay for a precious, innocent life ended in pain and often in utter terror.

The public is demanding greater assurances for public safety. In my home city of Calgary, in just a few days the Calgary Sun collected over 35,000 coupons urging the justice minister and the Liberal government to repeal section 745 of the Criminal Code. Those appeals, like thousands and thousands of others from across the country, have fallen on deaf ears.

Here we see the Liberal contempt for victims. The Liberals have always said they have great compassion for people who have been victimized. There is a bill which will come before the House in the near future to prevent sexual assault victims from having to disclose their private writings and diaries in sexual assault cases in order to spare them the embarrassment, pain and further trauma of having to be further invaded.

However, under this bill there seems to be no compassion at all for the families and the loved ones of murdered Canadians. Over and over there will be these hearings, reviews and applications for early parole. One of the Liberal senators has actually written a newsletter to convicted killers telling them how they can best be successful in getting out of jail early and having the penalty they might have to pay for brutalizing other Canadians reduced. That is absolutely repugnant and reprehensible but that seems to be the attitude.

One of the members opposite said nothing can replace a life. Is he implying somehow that there should be no penalty at all? Is 25 years too much? Is 15 years maybe too much? Maybe it should be five years or maybe one. Maybe we should say "gee, you should not have done that. That was not very nice. Do better next time".

What actually is the government's attitude to protect the people of this country and the innocent, brutalized victims? There have been young women who have been sexually assaulted and actually burned alive and their killers are out applying for early parole after only 15 years. This is a disgrace. For the government to stand up and say it supports that and it is going to allow that to continue is absolutely reprehensible.

I think Canadians have a very clear choice. It is between a Liberal government, which believes that all the compassion, breaks and considerations should be given to brutal killers in our society, and the Reform Party, which states that we have to send a very strong message from our society that if someone violates the rights, freedoms, safety and lives of innocent, law-abiding citizens they will be punished. They will pay a price for that. They had better be deterred from that because society is going to take that very seriously.

For the families of murderer victims there is no hope. Section 745 gives hope to criminals, to cold blooded, brutal murderers. However, for their victims and the families of victims there is no hope for peace, for a sense of closure and no hope for justice under the Liberal government.

I urge the Canadian people to think about their choices in this matter when they vote in the next election.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Hamilton—Wentworth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to support Bill C-45 and oppose the suggested amendments.

I congratulate the justice minister for the courage of bringing in Bill C-45 which, rather than rejecting outright section 745 of the Criminal Code, provides at least some alternative to absolute rejection of section 745.

Section 745 is a very bad bit of legislation. There has been a lot of talk in the House that it lets criminals sentenced to 25 years out on early parole when the victims of crime suffer the the chance of additional offences by these people if they do get out early.

What is missing in the debate is the suggestion of accountability. Section 745, as we heard from the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, has not led to an increase in crime. I reject the Reform Party suggestion that it has somehow caused fear in the victims of crime that these people will get out and again commit offences against them.

The real problem with section 745, if the members of the Reform Party will listen for a moment, is that it lacks accountability. It was created in an age in which governments in every way rejected basic accountability. In 1976, 20 years ago, governments ran up deficits. It was a time of unlimited welfare. It was a time when kids went to school and instead of demanding they produce good marks, they got a pat on the shoulder and were told: "It is not so bad. You still have other potential".

Section 745 is bad because it does not demand the accountability that society demands today for the actions of everyone. When they talk about victims of crime, they are complaining about those who have been harmed. When after 15 years they have an easy option for early parole, then they are not being held accountable for their crimes. That is the problem.

Added to that is the way that section 745 operates by permitting early parole. It allows a community jury to review the record of a criminal who has been sentenced to jail for 25 years without parole. Unfortunately, this jury of ordinary citizens is allowed to come to a decision by consensus rather than by unanimity. A jury of ordinary

citizens is asked to make subjective judgments rather than to decide the issue on a matter of fact.

Consider that when an accused is convicted of a crime, that accused is convicted by the unanimous decision of a jury based on fact. The fault with section 745 is that it requires consensus and asks a jury of laymen to be subjective in their assessment of criminals.

I can say that someone who has committed a heinous crime is very often capable of deceiving the most clever individual because he or she can dissemble. A person from the community who is not used to the way some criminals can disguise their real feelings is liable to be lured into a sense of compassion which would lead to a decision which may not be in the public interest.

If 25 people have been granted early parole in the lifetime of section 745, it is too many.

Why should the justice minister not do what the Reform Party is suggesting and reject section 745 altogether? I can tell the House why. It is because there must always be hope. We humans live together and we have a strong tradition in the Judaeo Christian culture where we believe that there is at least some possibility of redemption.

If in any law that we create we believe absolutely in the dark side of human beings, if we do not believe that there is some opportunity, however rare, that a miracle may happen and that one or two may be saved, then we are much less for it. I believe that the justice minister has allowed for that miracle.

Rather than rejecting section 745 entirely, he has brought in certain provisions that make it very difficult for a person who has been sentenced to 25 years without parole to gain an early parole.

Let me cite the ways in which that has been done. First, he has eliminated absolutely serial killers and multiple murderers. They are eliminated. They have no chance whatsoever.

Second, he has initiated a screening process where a judge will intervene first and consider the character of the person applying for early parole. This is an excellent provision. Previously the case was brought to the community jury automatically when the application was passed. A very serious problem was that the victims of crime were required on occasion to go before the jury to argue against a person being let out on early parole. I suggest that this caused needless suffering to the victims of crime.

However, when a judge first considers whether the application has any merit before it reaches the community jury, I think that would be the kind of check to make Bill C-45 work.

Finally, the best part of the bill is the fact that it requires a unanimous decision of a community jury to finally allow the applicant for early parole to have the application heard by the National Parole Board. That is as it should be.

If it takes 12 honest men and women to convict and sentence a killer to 25 years without parole, it takes a unanimous decision. Why should it not be the same way with a jury of 12 to decide whether or not 25 years should be lessened or changed in any way?

This is an excellent bill in every way. It addresses the fundamental flaw in section 745 which makes it too easy for people to seek early parole. At the same time it provides exceptional circumstances where all of us as human beings would want to see a miracle occur. Perhaps some person who has committed a major crime is worth saving. The system should somehow recognize this and do something about it.

This is an excellent bill and I congratulate the minister for his courage in introducing it.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on this bill to amend section 745 of the Criminal Code.

At times I have been kind of hard on the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, but I want to congratulate him for giving us, earlier today, the background of section 745 of the Criminal Code.

I also listened to the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra, for whom I have only had praise so far, but I must say that I was a bit disappointed to hear him continue to defend the indefensible, to support the untenable, to attempt the impossible, and let me explain what I mean, with all due respect for my colleague from Vancouver Quadra, whom I remember as a law professor at the school I attended.

Section 745 does not come out of nowhere and I want the members of the Reform Party who are bringing back the threat of capital punishment, because that is what we are in fact talking about here, in a roundabout way. I want them to be able to sleep as if nothing happened. However, history has taught us that the people who claim to speak on behalf of the majority, even those who talk until they get flushed with emotion, as we saw earlier, do not always have a monopoly of truth.

We do not have to look at foreign governments. Just look at what the Canadian government has done. My friend and colleague, the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra, must surely remember the act that was passed during the last world war to intern Japanese Canadians. Not one of the members sitting in this House at the time-and I know the Reform Party did not exist back then, but there were other similar parties-not one of them said: "Wait a minute. We are making a horrible mistake here and passing very

harmful legislation that may have some totally unforeseen impact on the lives of our fellow citizens".

Nobody asked this question. Some 35 years later, we have had to correct the situation, if money can be used for such a purpose, by passing redress legislation to make up for the mistake made by the members of Parliament 35 years earlier.

I think we may be making a similar mistake by hardening our views on section 745. When capital punishment was abolished, section 745 was seen as-mind what I say-a kind of release for people who had committed odious crimes and were under sentence of death. That person's safety inside could be ensured for a certain period of time. That person would generally accept his or her fate and be convinced that it would not be for long.

Since capital punishment was abolished and replaced by a 25-year term imprisonment or more, people who had been sentenced to death and were locked up for 25 years would lose all hope.

They would say to themselves: "This is unbelievable. I cannot take it. I expected to die, not to spend 25 years behind bars. This is unacceptable". Basically, what the law makers wanted to do was to reassure them by giving them some hope and telling them that 25 years is a very long time but it is possible to survive it.

We must give them some hope to control them and be able to keep them in prison without constantly having to face catastrophes, riots, rebellions, all kinds of crises inside our prisons.

That was the purpose of section 745 of the Criminal Code. There was a 25-year parole ineligibility period which, under section 745, could be now reduced. That was clearly explained to us by the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce.

The present government-and this is one criticism I have to express to my learned colleague from Vancouver Quadra-is "reforming" itself. In western Canada, it is important not to lose too many votes to the Reform Party, so the government has to have a "western" platform in the west and a more social platform in the east. How can it be done? The government comes up with solutions that are totally preposterous, things that we know will never happen.

The danger in that is that we can have two different kinds of justice in one country. I will elaborate on that because my colleague from Vancouver Quadra does not seem to understand what I am saying. Let us take the 12-person jury for example, where in Quebec, since people are generally a bit different, as we have heard and seen many times, it would not be impossible to find a jury that would be 9 to 3 in favour of a reduction of the ineligibility period whereas in western Canada, particularly in areas where the Reform Party is very strong, we might find a jury that would be unanimously against such a reduction.

Even with similar or identical crimes, we would see that the tendency would not be the same in one part of Canada as in another. My friend from Vancouver Quadra is smiling, but he knows that I am right, and so do you, Mr. Speaker, and I suppose this is why you are not interrupting me.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I will take this opportunity to stretch a little and simply say: "Never take anything for granted."

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

However, I detect here a bit of hypocrisy. If you mean to tell criminals that there is no hope, that there will be no hope, and never will be any, go ahead and say it and simply strike down section 745. If what you want to do is say there is hope, it is that you want to flirt a little with Quebecers, but you are setting such conditions that nobody will meet them.

One has to present a written application to convince a judge. Oral or verbal presentations are not allowed and one cannot appear before a judge. A written application is needed to ask a judge to convene a jury. The judge can deny the request, it is his right. If he agrees to it and convenes a jury, the jury has to be convinced that you are right and that requires unanimity.

If you manage to succeed, the jury allows you to go before the Parole Board, step number three. And then you have to convince these people too.

If we start the process after 15 years as it is stated in section 745, with the speed of the whole process, I fear the 25 years of the sentence will be over before the guy is even heard by the Parole Board.

We did a good job. The Quebec government cannot be accused of a lack of compassion for people in a bind or for those who made a mistake. There will be no grounds for accusing the government of facilitating the release of criminals, dangerous persons, monsters or whatever else they many be called, because this is how they describe them in the West. We are talking about the same people, but we simply do not identify them or define them the same way in eastern Canada and western Canada. This is one criticism I have of the government.

There is another point I must mention and that is the ineligibility of anyone guilty of multiple crimes, that is two or more, would not be covered by the new provision of this section, which I find unacceptable. Let us take the case raised by my friend the member for Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead, who spoke about Isabelle Bolduc but refused to explain in details what really happened, and I will follow his example, because it was simply horrible. According to this new provision, the criminal involved would be eligible for

the process and might even be released a few months or a few years earlier than the initial sentence provided.

On the other hand, some others commit multiple crimes accidentally as we saw in the case of Florent Cantin, who started a fire in a bar during the Christmas period. It was a bad joke that went wrong and killed 37 people. This young man was not a criminal. He wanted to play an innocent joke as many do without consequence. This one had tragic consequences, as it killed 37 or 38 people. If you are not too busy, Mr. Speaker, you can tell the hon. member about actus reus and mens rea. The hon. member for Vancouver Quadra knows what I am talking about. Both are required for a crime to be committed. In Florent Cantin's case, I am not sure if mens rea was present, if there was criminal intent. The act was certainly there. These are elements that must be considered in this bill, but the criminal aspect has been swept under the carpet.

I therefore ask the government and my colleague from Vancouver Quadra to exert some influence on the Minister of Justice-who is an authority on legal matters-to get him to be a little more flexible, to admit that making it tougher for inmates may lead to more intolerance and crime in Canadian prisons, and I am not sure we will win.

I think the Reform Party is on the wrong track as it starts playing with life and death issues. Grandstanding is all very well; it is terrible indeed to lose a loved one to a violent or heinous crime, but basically, if life has a price-

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I am sorry. I realize that, during our time back home, in our ridings, we have had plenty to say, but many members want to take part in the debate and I am trying to be as fair as possible to everyone.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

Unanimous consent can still be requested, can it not?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The hon. member for Chambly is asking for an extension of one minute or so to complete his remarks. Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just wanted to say that, in a society, one has to have a minimum of compassion for others, try to understand their point of view and take to have real debate in this House. I was going to make the suggestion to the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra and the Minister of Justice.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased once again to have the opportunity to represent the voice of the Canadian people in this debate on Bill C-45.

I am amazed listening to the separatist Bloc members and the Liberals across the way. I am amazed at how far removed their thinking is from the average Canadian on the street.

I sit here in utter astonishment as speaker after speaker stands up and basically says that the Canadian people out there do not count. They think this is good and they are going to do it their way. So much for democracy. So much for what the Canadian people think about this.

As a Reformer I will speak on behalf of the Canadian people. Although my words may fall on some pretty deaf ears in the House, at least the Canadian people deserve a chance to be heard and the Reform Party and I will speak on their behalf.

We are talking about Bill C-45. The majority of my constituents and millions of Canadians believe that section of the Criminal Code should be abolished because it serves no purpose. It is no deterrent for people who go out and ruthlessly take a life.

Bill C-45, the minister's pride and joy, introduces a few cosmetic changes at best.

Victims of Violence, CAVEAT, the Canadian Police Association and millions of Canadians want the section repealed. However, the Minister of Justice, just like the separatist Bloc members, have ignored their pleas and are pushing Bill C-45 through the House. It is a shame that a Liberal minister of justice cannot hear or chooses to ignore the cries of the Canadian people.

The bill makes a few amendments to section 745. First, the right of multiple murderers to apply for a judicial review for early parole will be removed. However, instead of making this provision retroactive so that it would apply to serial killers such as Clifford Olson and Paul Bernardo who are already incarcerated, it will apply only to those convicted of multiple murders after this bill comes into effect. If a person killed a bunch of people before the bill comes into effect they still have a chance. They can still apply. They are exempt from the bill.

Does the minister believe serial killers who are already incarcerated should have a better chance than those who will commit multiple murders in the future? Is that his logic? Considering what we have heard in the House today, as he sends speaker after speaker to support the bill, I suppose that is the philosophy of the Minister of Justice.

The minister has done nothing to prevent serial killers who are already in jail from getting their day in court and a chance at a reduced parole ineligibility period. He has done nothing. The bill is a sham.

Second, the bill would ensure that the murderer will have to convince a superior court judge that their application has a reasonable chance of success before they would be allowed to proceed before a jury. This sounds like a good measure. However, considering that applicants have had a 72 per cent success rate since May 1994 in having their parole ineligibility reduced, it is unlikely that a judge will find fault with a majority of the applications and dismiss them. In short, the new hurdle the Minister of Justice so proudly stands up to defend, which the Bloc so quickly supported, is really no hurdle at all. We will continue to see far too many section 745 hearings.

Last, Bill C-45 stipulates that a section 745 jury will have to reach a unanimous decision before the applicant's parole ineligibility is reduced. At present only two-thirds of the jury need to find in the applicant's favour.

The bottom line in all of this stuff is that section 745 should not exist at all. This is nonsense. This bill is nonsense. It does not reflect the wishes and the cries of the Canadian people in any way, shape or form. It is typical Liberal touch it up and they will not notice.

This bill was introduced as part of Bill C-84 in 1976 by the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce who was serving as the solicitor general for a Liberal government at the time. Bill C-84 abolished capital punishment and established two categories of murder, first and second degree. However, not too many people-and this is Liberal trickery-noticed the inclusion of section 745 review in the original bill,

As a result, Canadians have had to wrestle and deal with this provision for 20 years. Many Canadians believe that 25 years before being eligible for parole is not a suitable sentence for first degree murder. The polls have consistently shown, and this government will not admit it, that Canadians favour a return of capital punishment for those who are convicted of first degree murder, consistently. Right now almost 80 per cent of Canadians would welcome a binding national referendum on capital punishment.

These Liberals do not hear that. It is not in their philosophy. People are outraged that murderers are given a glimmer of hope after serving only 15 years. What glimmer of hope did these killers give their victims?

Speaking of victims, section 745 does them an incredible disservice. The whole judicial review process causes the revictimization of families and at times of entire communities. Gary Rosenfeldt, whose son was murdered by Clifford Olson, said the whole of section 745 is an insult to victims.

What do we have coming from this Liberal government? Simply window dressing with respect to dealing with section 745. As I said before, this comes as no surprise. The Liberals are constantly promoting the rights and privileges of criminals, constantly mollycoddling the very worse people in our society while victims are completely ignored. If the Liberals had any simple basic understanding of victims' rights, and they do not, they would have abolished section 745. They would not have had to come back to this weak-kneed pointless piece of legislation known as Bill C-45.

I would also like to take issue with this. This really bugs me. Bill C-45, this stupid bill, actually creates categories of good and bad murderers. It actually does that in reality. If you kill one person you will be entitled to a section 745 hearing. These are good murderers according to the Minister of Justice' understanding. If you kill one you are okay.

However, serial killers are not entitled to section 745 review because according to the justice minister's understanding these are bad murderers. It is truly unbelievable that the minister has actually quantified human life in this piece of legislation. He actually has set himself up as a person who can quantify whether one killing is better or worse than two killings. It is unbelievable.

According to this bill a murderer should be given a glimmer of hope if they kill only one person but any more than that and they will not get a review. The minister has set the quota at one life should at a future time they want an opportunity to reduce their parole ineligibility. It is disgraceful. It is reprehensible that the minister would sit down and draft his very own category of murderers, some deserving of leniency and some not.

I submit that one life is as important as two or three or four. If the minister wanted to differentiate between murderers he should have introduced consecutive sentencing. That is the way to deal with it. This would ensure that serial killers like Clifford Olson would never have a chance at parole.

It is time for the government to stand up for Canadians and their desire to have the justice system overhauled. It is time for the government to stand up for victims and against criminals. It is time for the government to stand up and do the right thing and abolish section 745. It should be ashamed that it has introduced such a reprehensible bill. It should be ashamed that it has ignored the views of millions of Canadians, particularly the views of victims' rights groups. I cannot support this bill. My party cannot support this bill. We will stand here speaking for Canadians and will oppose this stupid bill.

[John Nunziata, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the issue before the House today ought not to be a partisan issue. We are dealing with the question: what should be the appropriate penalty for the worst crime in the Criminal Code and that is first degree murder?

I have sat here all day listening to Liberals attack Reform members, Reform members attack Liberals as if this is a partisan

issue. It should not be a partisan issue. We should look at this issue on the basis of its merits and what is right and just.

There are those who have argued that the maximum period of incarceration should be 15 years. The author of section 745 spoke earlier today. When he was the solicitor general he brought in section 745. He believes that at the 15-year period all convicted killers should have the opportunity to apply for early release. His views are in the extreme minority. Those who suggest that section 745 can somehow be made better, can somehow be made more acceptable, are in the extreme minority if the views of Canadians are looked at.

The overwhelming majority of Canadians want the return of capital punishment. If you extrapolate from that particular poll result it is easy to conclude that an even greater number want the repeal of section 745.

I first became aware of this section of the Criminal Code when I was elected to this House and sat on the justice committee. We started reviewing the criminal justice system. It became abundantly clear to me that section 745 is an example of what is wrong with the criminal justice system when you allow those who commit the most heinous crime in the Criminal Code the opportunity to be released after serving only 15 years. There are of course other issues within the criminal justice system, whether it is the issue of consecutive sentences or the Young Offenders Act, that cause Canadians a great deal of concern.

In particular, section 745 reflects a bleeding heart attitude toward the criminal justice system that is not in keeping with what is fair, just and equitable in a criminal justice system. The Canadian criminal justice system is not just. Section 745 allows convicted killers to make a mockery out of the justice system.

Take the example of Clifford Olson. Everyone agrees that he will never be allowed to be free again yet he is using this section to revictimize, to repunish the survivors of his victims. This is the section that guarantees all convicted killers, and there will be some 600 of them that will be eligible to apply over the next 15 years, the right to apply to have their parole ineligibility reduced.

Over the last number of years I have worked very closely with families of victims, parents of victims and in particular mothers of victims. I have worked very closely with Darlene Boyd, Sharon Rosenfeldt, Debbie Mahaffy, Priscilla de Villiers and many others who have lost children, who have lost daughters to murder.

These mothers of victims make a compelling argument. I only ask members of Parliament to listen to the submissions put forward by these women and the hundreds of others who are survivors of victims as to the reasons why section 745 ought to be repealed, the reasons why section 745 is an unconscionable provision in the Criminal Code of Canada.

We are not dealing with choir boys. We are not dealing with crimes of passion. I have heard arguments put forward such as "what about the abused wife who murders an abusive husband?" We are not dealing with those situations here. Those people are not convicted of first degree murder or for that matter second degree murder.

We are dealing with those people who have characters that say it is okay within themselves to deliberately take the lives of other people, planned and deliberate murder, the worst crime in the Criminal Code.

If we are saying that a period of incarceration of 15 years is an appropriate penalty for first degree murder, what does that say about our society? What does that say about all the other awful crimes in the Criminal Code like rape, the molestation of young children, aggravated assault? All the other crimes become less significant. They become not as bad as murder. If the going rate for murder becomes 15 years, what will the going rate be for raping a child or for raping a woman? What will the penalty be? When we look at the penalty for first degree murder we should look at it in context.

We are not talking about rehabilitation. It really irks me when I hear members talk about rehabilitating a first degree killer. Tell me how. How do we rehabilitate a first degree killer?

Most first degree killers will not kill again. That is fact. Some will, most will not. It is not a question of the protection of society. It is a question of what the appropriate penalty should be for first degree murder.

How does society reflect its abhorrence of this awful crime? We read about them every day. We see them on television. We watch the families of the victims grieve. For them it becomes an unending funeral. To them the pain and suffering never ends.

Section 745 revictimizes them. It retraumatizes them. As one mother told me, it brings back all the awful feeling, the feeling of complete devastation when you are told by a police officer at your doorstep that your child or your husband or your wife has been murdered.

I ask hon. members not to detach themselves from the emotion of what this is all about because it is about emotion. It is about morality. It is about what is right and wrong. Look at this through the eyes of the parents who have lost children to convicted killers.

Is it right, is it just, to drag these families back through the courts after 15 years? Is it right and just and equitable for them to continue to suffer and to allow, whether it be a faint hope or any other hope, for those who have committed these awful crimes?

In my respectful submission, a 25-year prison term is reasonable. A minimum of 25 years is a reasonable period of incarceration in order to reflect society's abhorrence at this type of crime. It

is the moral thing to do. It is right to take away someone's freedom for having denied someone's right to live and for having destroyed not only the life of the victim but the lives of the family and friends those people have killed.

Millions of Canadians support the repeal of section 745: The Canadian Police Association, police officers across the country, correctional workers across the country, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. An overwhelming majority of Canadians want section 745 repealed so that the minimum period of incarceration becomes 25 years. To whom is the government listening when it tinkers with section 745?

We have been elected to the House of Commons to represent our constituents. We are here to represent the best interest of Canadians and what is right and just for the majority of Canadians. To continue to support the inclusion of section 745 in the Criminal Code, in my view, is a breach of the trust that Canadians put in each and every one of us three years ago when they elected us to the House of Commons.

I have tried as an individual member to have section 745 repealed. In fact the House voted to repeal section 745 in principle in December 1994. What has happened to all those members, including over 80 government members, who supported the repeal of section 745 who now will be supporting a bill which merely tinkers with section 745? They will have to reconcile with their constituents their change in vote.

In closing, let me urge the Prime Minister, who has committed himself to parliamentary reform, to allow a free vote on this matter, to allow a free vote on a bill that would repeal section 745. In my view that would go a long way to restoring the trust and confidence that Canadians ought to have in their elected members.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased but also rather concerned about having to speak on this very serious bill on judicial review and parole ineligibility.

When dealing with these issues, we must be careful not to become excessive, as the Reform Party tends to do, but we must also avoid giving in to what I would call election-related pressure. This is not an issue that must be influenced by election-related pressure or constraints. Rather, it calls for a serious and thorough review that will allow us to see if the measures that have been part of the Criminal Code for quite some time are good. Have these measures been effective? Have they provided interesting results? Do we need to change them?

This is also an issue about which we must be careful not to become emotional but, rather, rational. Let us look at the overall situation in terms of those affected by this measure.

As of December 31, 1995, there were 175 eligible inmates; 76 of them had applied for a judicial review of their parole ineligibility. In other words, these people wanted to have the opportunity to be paroled after the 15th year and before the 25th year of their sentence. Of these 76 applications, 13 are pending, while a decision has been made in the other 63 cases. A reduction was granted to 39 inmates. It is important to mention that only one of them reoffended. And it was not murder, but armed robbery.

One has to realize that this is not all black and white. We need to ponder this issue carefully and make a balanced judgement instead of resorting to anecdotal evidence. It is really a terrible situation when a crime is committed. The impact on the family members and relatives of the person who has been killed is horrendous. We often tend to look for remedy for the guilt and the grief by demanding a severe punishment for the murderer. Maybe not as severe as the crime itself, but a sentence long enough to make sure the murderer is not back out on the street.

It has been proven that families who have this ultimately quite natural reaction do not experience a lessening of their grief because the murderer has been severely punished. It has been proven both in Canada and in the United States. The grief for the lost one remains, and there is no connection whatsoever with the punishment.

We have to get to the bottom of this issue and see whether the steps taken have given the anticipated results. For example, I am told that 39 inmates got a reduction, that 38 have not reoffended and that not one of them has been convicted for a new offence. This means that the vast majority of the people have been able to come back out into society and to make a positive contribution.

Therefore, we now have to determine the real purpose of our criminal justice system. Among the offenders sentenced to 25 years in prison, there are career criminals, but also people who have committed a crime, who have made a terrible mistake under some kind of impulse, an act that was not necessarily premeditated.

We also have to know what direction the system is taking. Is there an increase or a decrease of the crime rate in Quebec and in Canada right now? The figures show that the crime rate is declining everywhere, at least in Quebec.

We need to compare what we have with the other systems where the measures taken are getting tougher and tougher. We can often compare ourselves to the Americans in this regard. The way the

system works in Canada, how it ultimately affects the crime rate, the reintegration of people into the society and the costs of the system. I think our approach, that is, the one which was developed in the last 15 or 20 years, compares favourably with the one that has been developed in the United States. I think we must build upon our successes.

The real objectives of the government can be called into question. When we look at the statistics and see that of the 73 individuals who asked for a review, 63 obtained one and 39 were granted a reduction in their sentence and only one committed an offence subsequently, one has every reason to wonder why the government introduced such a bill.

This bill appears to have been introduced in reaction to pressure and ultimately will not solve much. We can see what has been proposed for multiple murders. This will create terrible confusion and injustice. It is not the fact that a person has taken one or two lives that is important, it is the type of crime that has been committed. The number of victims seems totally irrelevant to me.

The other element concerns the decision committee. Again the government appears to be closing the door completely without having the political courage to say so. It should take a clear stand in favour of abolishing this provision or say that the present system is working well and prove it to all Quebecers and Canadians so they can judge for themselves.

I also think that it is typical of politics nowadays. It is very easy to slip into demagogy. It is very easy to say that we have a typical example, a horrible situation, the kind of things we occasionally see in the newspapers. It is terrible to see and to experience this kind of thing; it stirs up lots of emotions. It is a personal situation that can be very difficult to go through.

We are not here to make a sensation. We are here to pass laws that will have a real positive effect and that will, ultimately, make our society more equitable and less violent, more evolved and more aware of new ways of rehabilitating criminals.

Even if tomorrow we could arrange for nobody to be eligible to have their ineligibility reviewed, we would not have solved the problem. There is no link between murders that have been committed in the past and those that will be committed in the future. People who are in such situations of violence are not calculating whether, if caught and sentenced, they will be able to apply for a review of their situation after 15 years. This is not how it works. This is not what is going through their head. These situations are more likely to arise after a number of years in prison, when individuals have lived through more, and have had the idea that they are capable of reintegrating into society. There is a whole process provided for the assessment of these cases.

I feel that the present model needs more thinking and more study before we come up with measures such as the one the government is proposing or, even worse, such as the one the Reform Party was advocating. If we were to adopt very tough legislation or this bill, we would have the feeling that we had done our job, but with the corrective measures, those that will come in the future, will we, five or ten years down the road, be able to say that we truly improved the situation?

Rather, might we not try to hide things a bit, saying that, in the end, all those measures we took did not settle anything or improve the situation, that the recividism rate cannot really be lower than what it is. We have to make sure that those who must act in these decisions may do so rapidly.

I will conclude on this. It is important that we make a balanced judgment. I encourage the government to do its homework. If there are changes to be made in this section, they should be made after more careful study with no regard to the temptation put in the way by the Reform Party, which wants to create a mockery of justice. I do not think it is in the interests of Canadians and Quebecers that things be done this way.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in the dying days of the last session of Parliament I stood in the House to voice my opposition to what the justice minister was doing with section 745. I have listened to the justice minister over the summer and I have come to the conclusion that the minister just does not get it.

Instead of talking to my lawyer friends in Calgary and the inmates and criminals that the justice minister wants to coddle, I talked with some of the people that Bill C-45 would affect: my constituents. I sent out surveys to see what my constituents thought and I have never received more responses in the three years I have been an MP, 1,702 to be exact.

Of the people who responded, 85 per cent felt that the people who were convicted of first degree premeditated murder should not have their sentence reduced at all. Eighty-five per cent. Not only that but two-thirds of the people who responded felt that those who committed first degree premeditated murder should be subject to capital punishment. Based on the questionnaire, I believe that a nationwide referendum on the issue is becoming more and more mandatory.

One question asked was: What do you believe should be the penalty for first degree premeditated murder? This does not need much explanation. Most people know what premeditated first degree murder, the taking of a life, is. The response was that 1,144

favoured capital punishment, not the lifetime with parole after 25 years which is being bandied around in the House by the bleeding heart government members.

The second question was: Do you think that people convicted of first degree murder should have the ability to go before a jury after 15 years and present a case to have the time they are required to serve in jail reduced? In response, 1,469 said no. A high number of those responding said no, serve the full time.

The third question was: Should people serving a sentence for first degree murder have their sentence reduced at all? After all, in the wisdom of the House back in the seventies the penalty was supposed to be life. One thousand, four hundred and fifty-three said no, the sentence should not be reduced.

The public is scared. Our streets are not safe. Violent crime is on the rise. Even the justice minister admitted that in the House. Canadians expect and deserve a country where they can feel secure in their homes and communities and where they can grow old without fear. Canada has been shaken by crime and a defective criminal justice system which the Liberal government has been slow to fix. When will the minister get this?

Why does the government place less value on one life than it does on two or 20 lives? Corrections Canada's mission is to contribute to the protection of society by exercising lawful control. The government will send peacekeepers around the world to prevent people from murdering one another, yet it will release rehabilitated murderers onto Canadian streets. Why do two people have to die before the government will step in to lock these criminals up?

Where are the government's priorities? Has it forgotten that its first responsibility is to law-abiding Canadians and that it must do everything to protect their safety? Is it any wonder that people do not trust our justice system?

It is time to place the rights of victims, the survivors of crime, and law-abiding citizens ahead of the rights of criminals. Let us remember that a victim's sentence is forever; it is a lifetime sentence served in a graveyard. The murderer gets life with a reprieve, an opportunity to get out.

The justice minister has never offered the Boyd or Rosenfeldt families compensation for the horrific murders of their children, but the government will give inmates compensation for slipping in a stairwell. The government paid Clifford Olson compensation to the tune of $100,000 and will even allow him to publish books and to make videos while in jail. What a slap in the face to those families. Where is the justice in all of this? There is none. This is protecting the criminals' rights more than the victims'. It is not a strong enough deterrent.

Despite the justice minister's claims, the public interest will not be served by keeping first degree murderers in prison for any less than 25 years, even if they just kill once. The government must repeal section 745. The safety and the lives of Canadians depend on it.

When we were debating the gun control bill, Bill C-68, many members on the government side stood and talked about the justification of the expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars which will be sucked out of the system in order for law-abiding citizens to register their firearms. The argument was an emotional one which came from the heart: If it saves just one life the gun registration system is well worth it.

If that is the logic the government used to justify the gun control bill, why does it not apply the same logic in this instance and repeal section 745? If by repealing section 745 a murderer must serve the full life sentence with a parole opportunity after 25 years, why not do that? Why not try it to see if it would be a stronger deterrent? Why not implement that?

If the repeal of section 745, despite all the great arguments on both sides of the House, saves one life, then why not? If it saves one single life then why not repeal section 745? Why is the government not consistent? The justice minister speaks about the multiple murderer syndrome. The life I am talking about that could be saved with the repeal of section 745 is that life the murderer would not get a chance to murder.

The member for York South-Weston said that most murderers do not repeat their crime. Notice that he said "most". If after the passage of Bill C-45 a murderer who has killed once does it again, if it just saves that one life, the repeal of section 745 is worth it.

I have one other objection to this whole farce and fiasco that this justice minister perpetrates on the House of Commons and the way he operates his department, this business of sending bills after second reading to the House. Even when they come back from the House and the standing committee and they are in his hands, for example, Bill C-41, the so-called tougher sentencing bill and Bill C-68, gun control, it sits in his department and then eight days before we leave or break he has to force it and limit debate for opposition members, not allowing them to fully discuss the issues at hand.

That is not the way you do justice in this country. That is an injustice to Canadians. That is not the way he should be running his department. He did it on Bills C-41 and C-68 and now he will probably end up doing it on Bill C-45. He did it as well on Bill C-33.

There is one other injustice that is being perpetrated by the justice minister of this government. The private member's bill, Bill C-234 from the hon. member for York South-Weston, was sent to committee. That is supposed to come back from the committee and be reported. In the wisdom of the standing committee on justice I

understand it is not going to report it back to the House. It is going to ignore it.

As members of the House of Commons we sent that bill to that standing committee and it is supposed to come back. It is not allowing this member of Parliament representing Calgary Centre to speak to Calgary Centre constituents about the fate of that particular bill, the status that it is at and what this government thinks about it. That is an injustice and this justice minister should be applying what his title calls for, justice, not injustice.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am going to offer to the House a personal experience today on how section 745 has affected my life.

Fourteen years ago, one block from my home at a convenience store a young woman about the age of the young pages we have with us in the House was abducted. Her disappearance from that convenience store that night put my small community in a state of panic. No one knew what had happened to Laurie Boyd. She had disappeared.

The panic our community felt was something that touched me personally. My wife was afraid to leave our home and travel the short distance to Calgary. My daughter who was about the same age, within a year, was afraid to walk to school.

Laurie's body was found by a good friend of mine and it was unrecognizable. I was the personal physician of the Boyd family. I knew them well. I had treated them, counselled with them and looked after them in sickness, and so I anguished personally with them over their loss.

There were rumours in Okotoks about what had happened, rumours that some criminals had an undercover police car and a police light they were using to attract and murder individuals. There had been two murders in our community.

One of my colleagues in High River hospital had a patient that tried to commit suicide. Under the effect of the drugs he had tried to commit suicide with he confessed to the two murders. He and his partner were then apprehended. The story of the murder of Laurie Boyd is something I will never forget, the story of how they enticed her to go to the back of the convenience store and clapped her in a van. They took her out to an abandoned gravel pit, forcibly raped her, promised her they would let her go, stabbed her repeatedly with a screwdriver and then poured on her dead body gasoline and made her unrecognizable.

I guess I will never forget it because with the family I went over that specific issue in my mind, in my eye and in counselling with them. When the court proceedings went through the horrible crime, these two beasts-and I say that word harshly but that is how I felt-received the most serious penalty anyone could receive in Canada. They were guilty of premeditated, first degree murder. I and the family felt some small satisfaction in that penalty. Life without chance of parole was the sentence from that judge.

The Boyds then went on to try to recreate their lives, Trevor the son, Darlene and Doug. We stayed in close touch and they did rebuild their lives.

I then found myself as an MP some years later. I had a call from my old friend, Darlene. She said: "I have to talk to you, Grant". She came to my office and said: "Tell me this isn't so. Tell me that Jim Peters cannot get out in 15 years. Tell me that section 745 is not true". I said to her: "Darlene, it is true but there is hope. There is a member from another party who has a private member's bill on the table and it received support in the House of Commons to go to committee. There is hope that 745 will be tossed in the dustbin of history. It is at the committee stage. I am pretty sure that because of the unanimity that exists in the House the bill will be passed and we will see 745 gone. The one remaining beast, as the second one killed himself in prison, will not get out".

Darlene said: "Thank you, Grant. Thank you for that reassurance. Thank you for that advice". It was not too long after that when she came back and said: "I hear that private member's bill is not going to make it. What should I do?" "Well, Darlene, campaign for the abolition of 745", was my advise.

Darlene Boyd resurrected the trauma in her life to do just that. She personally was responsible for the names in the Calgary Sun , the chorus of people crying for the abolition of 745. She has travelled at her expense throughout Canada to get 745 abolished.

I have to stand in public and say to her: "Darlene, I am sorry. I think the government of this day will not do what must be done. Section 745 in my view should be abolished but I do not believe that it will be abolished with this government".

What happened to the other members who with me said the bill from the member for York South-Weston should go to committee and should be considered carefully? What happened to those individuals who agreed in principle with abolishing section 745 of the Criminal Code? I have listened to some of them speak here and they say Bill C-45 is enough and that it will still provide a glimmer of hope. I have heard them say it does not bother the victims' families to go through this.

My message is simple and clear, as I have counselled again with the Boyd family on this issue. The individual who tore their lives apart, who will have his hearing in February, has torn their lives apart again.

I know the justice minister has compassion in his heart for Jim Peters. Jim Peters, who perpetrated this crime and who was sentenced to 25 years without chance of parole, a major sentence in

Canada, is being treated with leniency. Darlene Boyd and her family are not. I believe that is wrong.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, after that moving testimony by my colleague from Macleod and the indictment that one has heard against this piece of legislation by the Minister of Justice, one would hope the Liberal backbenchers would think again, talk to their minister and ask him to reconsider what he intends to impose on Canadians.

There is no question in my mind that Canadians from coast to coast are absolutely appalled that the Minister of Justice has decided to water down section 745 a little rather than eliminating it entirely. Therefore I call on my colleagues on the Liberal government bench to do the honourable thing when it comes to a vote and vote down this legislation and call for the return of the private member's bill by the member for York South-Weston. That would be the honourable thing to do.

Take a look at this piece of legislation and how it affects individuals. We have just heard from the member for Macleod how it tears individuals, innocent Canadians, who have suffered horribly at the hands of criminals, how they have been torn apart and their lives shattered and how 15 years later they have to relive the horror and the tragedy; how they have to fight the government that is disposed to defend their freedom and their principles; how they have to fight the government that is supporting the criminal. They feel all alone in society and ask who stands up for them.

It is we, all of us in this House, who are supposed to stand up for them. That is why I think the members on the government side should do the honourable thing and defeat this piece of legislation and call for the return of the private member's bill by the member for York South-Weston which would repeal this section in its entirety.

Looking at the proposals by the Minister of Justice, he is now talking about having a superior court judge assess the situation and the application by the criminal to find out if it has a reasonable prospect for success. If he feels it does he can refer the matter to a jury. That in itself is an insult to the principle of juries in this country where we ask juries, peers of people who stand accused, to judge.

Now we are asking a judge to prejudge what a jury is going to hear. That seems to be turning our whole justice system upside down because juries are the people in this country who are given the right to decide, not superior court judges who will decide what juries will hear and what they will not hear.

Why are we putting the superior court justice in the middle of our judicial system where we depend on juries to pass impartial judgment on people who stand accused? Now we are going to put in the middle the superior court justice who is going to decide whether or not a jury should hear a case.

Of course, his judgment is going to be subject to the potential for an appeal and subsequent appeals all the way up to the Supreme Court. Our whole judicial system has the potential to be totally caught up in the throes of reworking and rehashing something a judge decided at the time the sentence was handed out.

This crime was so heinous, this person should be locked up for 25 years without parole. If the judge decides that based on the evidence presented to him, surely Canadians expect the right to have that judgement rendered and carried through all the way.

Section 745 was introduced as the faint last hope clause and has become the open door clause for convicted murderers. The Minister of Justice should have closed it.

I think of what life sentences mean in other countries. In the United Kingdom for example a life sentence is a life sentence where someone will spend 25 years in jail and when he gets out he is on parole for the rest of his life. If he violates his parole conditions, he is back inside. He is subject to the government and to the parole conditions for the rest of his life.

When I think of Clifford Olson I am appalled how justice failed Canadians. Not only are we going to allow him to appeal his sentence after 15 years, but everybody knows he should have been designated a dangerous offender. However, the law allows such a narrow window for that application to be made that by the time the judgment is rendered and the sentence is passed the prosecutor forgets to apply for dangerous offender status. Therefore Mr. Olson and others like him will be able to walk the streets of this country absolutely and totally free after 25 years, perhaps sooner. Is that the type of justice that we feel Canadians expect? Is that the type of justice that this government feels Canadians want to have? I do not think so. The people I talk to certainly do not want that.

We need safe streets. People need to feel they can walk the streets at night without fear of murder, without fear of rape and without fear of robbery. We seem to bend over backward to help those who have murdered and raped yet we do nothing to help those innocent people who have been injured, who have been terrorized, who have been destroyed by these crimes.

The member for Fraser Valley West has introduced a victim's rights bill where we are going to start recognizing that these victims have rights and these rights should stand before the rights of the criminal. That is the type of legislation we should be talking about in this House.

We should not be talking about whether the person has committed one murder or two murders and one murder is fine and two is maybe a little bit worse. The Minister of Justice talks about good murderers and bad murderers and makes differentiations. Ask any family who has had one of its members murdered if they feel that their hurt is any less because that was the only murder committed by a criminal versus someone who has committed more than one murder. Ask if they hurt any less. I can assure the House that they do not.

The testimony of the hon. member for Macleod showed us that is the case. Therefore why is this government talking about statistics when we are talking about real people? We are talking about individuals who walk on the streets and individuals who should be walking on the streets but are in their graves today while the others are locked up and should stay locked up. Yet this government wants to turn those people lose on society.

I think of the Gingras case in Edmonton where I come from. Because he was a good little boy in prison we took him to the West Edmonton Mall for his birthday party and he escaped from his guards and murdered two more people before he was back in. Is this the justice system Canadians want, where we take murderers out for a birthday party to the shopping mall and to the amusement park in West Edmonton Mall so that he can have a good time while others never ever heal from the hurt and the tragedy?

This government has to think again. This government has to realize that Canadians want justice served. If government members will not do it at the next election, Canadians will find somebody who will do it. That is the point. The member for York South-Weston said to scrap the bill. They used political backroom deals to bury it and to bring forth their own piece of legislation.

Canadians see through that. Very definitely they see through that. They want a government that stands up and is accountable. We see this government. It does not matter if it is crime and punishment. It does not matter if it is the Somalia affair. It does not matter if the chief of defence staff stands up and says: "Mea culpa. Sure, I broke the spirit of the law but does it matter?" Of course it matters. Everything matters because we need to have some leadership and accountability in this country. It can start right here with the repeal of section 745.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to this bill. It gives me no pleasure at all to make some of the points that I have to make today.

I was the one who seconded the bill that the member for York South-Weston brought to this House. I laid aside partisan politics. It did not matter that he was a member of the Liberal Party at that time. I felt the issue was important and deserved to be supported.

I would appeal to every member in this House to do what we have been sent here by our constituents to do, which is to look at every piece of legislation, to listen to the debate very carefully and to decide whether or not it is a good law.

I would submit that the evidence that has been presented, all the speeches that have been given on this would indicate to the members in this House that section 745 should be repealed.

As my constituents have sent me to Ottawa to be their voice, I want to express my complete and utter opposition to the amendments and to this bill. My constituents have told me this: If a criminal is sentenced to life imprisonment without parole, then that is exactly what the sentence should be. I believe that no one can reasonably second guess a decision made by a judge and jury 15 years earlier, nor do I think our laws should ever permit them to do so.

Eighty-six per cent of my constituents say that it is time to return to capital punishment as a punishment option for judges. Eighty-six per cent. At every public meeting I attend, from virtually everyone who deals with criminal justice issues there are demands not only for capital punishment but also for corporal punishment to be reinstated.

These are the things that my constituents are saying. I wholeheartedly agree with them. I have looked at the evidence. I have examined the issues. They are right.

Given my constituents' thoughts on the return of capital punishment, members can understand their determination to ensure that premeditated murderers are required by law to serve their full sentence. Twenty-five years without parole should mean 25 years without parole. Section 745 must not be repealed and not be amended.

The question that I want to discuss very briefly is, why should we be listening to the people out there in regard to this criminal justice issue. Is it important or do we somehow feel we think at a higher level than the people around us? I do not believe we do.

Justice is fundamental to maintaining the fabric of a society. That is why we should listen. The laws that are put in place by a Parliament in a democratic country should reflect the values of that society. If they do not, the very fabric of society begins to unravel.

I want to give an example. The Young Offenders Act has become a revolving door for many young people. I have fairly close connections with the high school in the city of Yorkton. I have had my own children going through that school. The effect of not having a young offender properly dealt with is that it begins to affect everyone else in society. That is what I mean by the fabric of society beginning to unravel if we do not have true justice in

society. If the people do not perceive that justice is being served their whole attitude toward the law begins to decline. That is why section 745 needs to be repealed. The people in our country are beginning to develop a very cynical attitude toward the law.

In the high school in Yorkton that I am referring to, when these young people are not dealt with properly the rest of the young people in that school begin to take the attitude: "It does not matter what I do. It does not matter. I can do as I wish". It even goes so far that the quality of work produced by the students begins to decline. Therefore justice does not affect the attitude toward the law but it begins to affect everything else in society.

If we want to maintain a quality of life within our country, we must listen to what the people of Canada are telling us. It is fundamental to maintaining a structured, healthy, vibrant society. That is why I submit that we as politicians, as parliamentarians, should be looking at the overall effect of the laws in our country and what they do.

If we underestimate the impact this section is having, I ask members to please keep in mind this fact. In the next 15 years approximately 600 killers will become eligible for judicial reviews to have their sentence reduced by up to 40 per cent. Six hundred killers will have the opportunity of having their sentences reduced.

Currently section 745 hearings are biased in favour of the criminals. When I went to some of the investigations and some of the prisons across Canada I could not believe the system and how it does not work.

These hearings are preoccupied with the interests and rights of the criminal to the detriment of the interest and rights of the victim and the victim's family. At these hearings the criminal has more rights than the victim. Victims are currently not even allowed to appear as a witness and give evidence at these hearings.

The bureaucrats who are running the prisons get to select what information is given to the judge and jury about the inmate. They say they cannot release negative information about the convicted killer because it would invade their right to privacy. Can anyone believe this? A killer has the right to privacy. I believe that when someone commits a heinous crime like murder, some of those rights are lost. I especially believe the right to privacy is forfeited. They have failed our society. I question the need for killers to have any rights when they are in jail.

I know my constituents are making these demands and it is time for the government to listen to what Canadians are saying. It is so fundamentally important that justice be the thing we focus on in the House.

The hon. member for Macleod gave an example and, time permitting, I will also give the House an example. This is not an isolated case. We must understand that every murder committed in this country has a story surrounding it. Here is another one.

In 1994 an early parole hearing for a murderer was held in Saskatoon. The victim's family was not allowed to appear before the judge and jury. The victim's story was never told. Here are the facts of a premeditated, cold blooded murder.

In 1978 Constable Brian King was working alone in the Saskatoon detachment area. He was married to Marie and had three small children. He stopped a car with no rear licence plate, something he had done hundreds of times. But this time there were two men inside the car that had only one thing in mind: they were going to kill a cop.

Greg Fisher and Darryl Crook had been partying earlier that night and had told people they intended to kill a cop that very night. They removed the licence plate from their car so that the unsuspecting police officer might stop them. When Constable King stopped their car, Crook threw a beer bottle into the ditch. As King went to pick up the beer bottle the two killers got out of the car, jumped King, stole his gun, handcuffed him, forced him into the car, drove him to the bank of the South Saskatchewan River, made him kneel down and shot him twice in the head at point blank range.

They were caught later that night by the Saskatoon city police. Both Fisher and Crook were convicted of first degree murder, which means premeditated murder, and they were both sentenced to life imprisonment with no eligibility for parole for at least 25 years. It was not 15 years, but life imprisonment with no eligibility for parole for 25 years.

This information and all its gory details had to be part of any hearing regarding the possible reduction of the sentence. Every juror at the hearing must feel the horror of Constable King's last minutes on earth. Only in this way would they understand why these killers were sentenced to the maximum sentence allowed by law.

I and the majority of Canadians only wish that capital punishment had been an option for the judge and jury in this case. It should have been.

There is another part of the victim's story that these hearings are denied, the pain and suffering the victim's family had to go through because of the callous disregard for human life that Fisher and Crook had for the victim. The judge and jury in these cases must understand all of the consequences of these senseless murders before they rule on reducing the sentence by even one month.

When Mr. Fisher's hearing came up early this year it was suggested by Mrs. Marie King-Forest that they might just want to stay at home and not even attend the hearings. After all, what could be gained? Mrs. King-Forest said: "How can it be that my entire family is forced to go through this all again? This is wrong. He was sentenced to life with no parole for 25 years. That is the penalty for killing Brian. There should be no shortcuts".

To Mrs. King-Forest's credit she was able to mount such a high level of public support for her situation that the judge granted a hearing mistrial because of media coverage and police attendance at the hearing. She later appeared before the federal Minister of Justice to ask him to repeal section 745, but he gave no indication leading toward such changes.

This is one more story to underline that we must repeal section 745.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

In order for members to be clear, this afternoon I have been using my clock and there is a difference of approximately one minute. I am going to ask for resumption of debate and whoever that member might be will be the first on the speaking list when this matter returns to the House. If no one is prepared to resume debate we will call the question.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Calgary Northeast.

With the agreement of the House I will see the clock as being 6.30 p.m. rather than giving the floor to someone for less than one minute. Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

It being 6.30 p.m., the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24.