Debates of Feb. 9th, 1998

Canadian Wheat Board Act

[Keith Martin, Reform, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we certainly appreciate your wise intervention.

It is a pleasure to speak on Bill C-4, and in particular the Group No. 4 motions. If I may just give a bit of a preamble to Bill C-4.

This issue is one that our party has fought for for a very long time and have worked very hard to try to bring some sense and sensibility to the wheat board for the men and women who toil in the fields in our country to produce some of the best wheat in the world.

Bill C-4, and in particular the Group No. 4 motions, we find extremely egregious. It prevents our men and women who are farmers to ensure that they are producing the best crop, that the crop is going to fetch the best price and they will have in return the best profits.

The wheat board bill and the proposals therein produced by the government are in fact going to restrict and constrict the wheat board in its ability to serve the farmers of this nation. We find that extremely unfortunate, particularly since strong constructive solutions have been put for quite some time to the government, not only by our party, but also by people in the agriculture business. It is unfortunate that the government has continued to ignore those.

I would like to begin with something very important. The legislation is not bringing about voluntary participation in the Canadian Wheat Board and farmers are not given the right to choose. I will make one point here and it is an interesting analogy.

When you look at other areas in the agricultural sector, areas that have taken themselves out of the restricting and constricting rules and regulations of the wheat board, have they done worse? No. They in fact have done a lot better. Their profits have gone up. Their production has gone up. Their ability to invest within their industry has improved. They have hired more people, and as a result, Canadians and Canada are a lot better off.

Why the government does not take the bull by the horns and try to revamp the Canadian Wheat Board to make it nimble and effective is beyond me. Why does it not make this board keep the rules and regulations that are going to effectively represent the farmers and remove those that are not? I will just list a few of these points if I may, relating, of course, to the Group No. 4 motions, most of which have been put forth by members from the Reform Party.

Thousands of grain farmers have told the government that they are not happy with the monopoly that currently exists in the Canadian Wheat Board. They want the market and they want to be able to deal with the market products themselves. The government has not done that. The government has continued to support the rules and regulations that act as a constricting and restricting influence on wheat producers in this country. That is unfortunate.

I do not know why the government continually tries to support the production and furthering of rules and regulations when we should have the removal of them. There are more rules and regulations that restrict trade in this country east-west than north-south. Why are we restricting the ability of our private sector, and in this case our wheat producers, from being the best that they can become by producing these rules and restrictions that over-regulate them when farmers in other countries of the world do not have to labour under the same restrictions? It is grossly unfair to them and it is about time that the government listens to the farmers, many of whom have been before the agriculture committee to tell the government very clearly that this bill, Bill C-4, cannot by itself go through in its current format.

I would like to also mention the ability of the board of directors to be elected. The government had an opportunity to put forth amendments through Bill C-4 with the Group No. 4 motions that we have produced to ensure that the board of directors is going to be elected and that the president of the wheat board is going to be accountable to the directors. The directors are going to be accountable to the wheat board and to the farmers, not the president and not the government.

The last I checked this was supposed to be a democracy. A democracy does not run when the minister controls the wheat board. The wheat board has to be controlled by the directors who are duly elected by the members whom they are supposed to represent. Anything short of that would not be a democracy.

That is something that we in the Reform Party are fighting for and have done so for almost five years. If the government would listen for a change, perhaps we could all win, and in particular the farmers of this country could win.

It is also very important for directors who normally would hold authority over the wheat board that the minister responsible and the Minister of Finance not be the ones who are controlling this board of directors.

The board of directors could also be denied liability protection if they were to speak and act freely on behalf of farmers. Directors would only be covered for liability if they act in the best interests of the corporation. This smacks of what? The Mafia. How can we possibly have an organization which tells its directors “You can only do what pleases the corporation but not what pleases and supports the farmers of this country”? Who are these directors supposed to represent, the farmers or the minister and this government?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

The farmers.

[Keith Martin, Reform, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I am glad that the government members are agreeing that the board of directors should speak for the farmers. It is unfortunate but the way Bill C-4 stands unamended will ensure that the board of directors is going to be responsible to the minister and not to the farmers. In fact the directors of the Canadian Wheat Board will be under the rule of the minister, not directed by the farmers, but by a stranglehold by the president and by the minister.

The Mafia operates that way. The Canadian Wheat Board should not.

I hope the government listens to and adopts wholeheartedly the Group No. 4 motions that my party, the Reform Party, has produced. They are sensible motions, they are reasonable motions, they are realistic motions and they are motions that will strengthen Bill C-4. They are motions that will help our farmers be more effective. They are motions that I think the members can be proud of and know that they have done a good deal for the farmers of our country.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak in this debate on Bill C-4 and in particular the Group No. 4 amendments.

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if you know very much about farming, but I do know that you have a lot of knowledge about grains and what you can do with grains. I commend you on your entrepreneurship in setting up a bakery that not only is successful but produces some of the most tasty results in which Edmontonians have an opportunity to partake.

I commend you, Mr. Speaker, for providing this kind of service to so many people in your community.

When I look at the bill and the Group No. 4 motions—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Would the hon. member for Malpeque be kind enough to repeat his point of order?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Yes, Mr. Speaker. Could you throw the hon. member a bun so we can taste it to see if it is worth all that praise?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I was seriously considering questioning whether or not the hon. member for Crowfoot was being relevant. I could not see that he was not so we will go back to debate.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was wondering how far you would allow me to stretch the limits of this debate.

Nevertheless, when I look at the bill and the amendments, I look for the balance as we do with any legislation and reform of legislation. I ask myself whether the bill relieves the pressure building up from a number of sources against the monopoly held by the wheat board. I do not see that it does that. That is unfortunate. In my riding, which is a large agricultural riding, there are good, honest, hardworking people on both sides of the debate about what we should do in terms of reforming the Canadian Wheat Board.

It is unfortunate that in democratizing the board the minister and the government are unwilling to go the full way. They are allowing a number of members on the board to be elected but are retaining the power and the authority to appoint the president. Why is that? What is there to fear about having the president of the Canadian Wheat Board elected? What is wrong with that?

I would like members on the other side to provide a rationale for only going part way. There is common ground on the whole issue of reforming the wheat board, of election of the board by those in agriculture who have a vital, vested interest. We have an indirect vested interest because they produce the food we consume. They provide the new wealth on which the government taxes so exorbitantly every year. They are the ones to whom our international brothers and sisters look to provide the food they require but cannot grow in their own countries.

Why would we not go all the way and allow for the complete democratization of the wheat board? Then those in agriculture would be accountable and responsible. They understand the trials and tribulations of farmers in attempting to keep their farming operation going.

The problem is that when it comes right down to it the wheat board does not care very much whether or not my farming neighbour has to go bankrupt. It really does not care. Farmers are always looking for ways and means of enhancing their own standard of living and ensuring that their profit margin is broad enough to face a possible bad year when there may be a crop failure. They are looking for security, as I think everyone is.

The whole business of seeking security and freedom to seek security are very much part of the freedom individuals throughout the world seek. Farmers are seeking freedom that would allow them to secure their farms for their children and grandchildren. They want to function in a system that is clear and unequivocal. They want to direct their sales and products into markets that will give them the greatest return.

Why would they want a greater return? It is so simple. Why are farmers seeking a greater return and the right to market in areas that grant them the greatest return? It is to provide for their families, to provide for their children, to provide for their own feelings of security. If the wheat board is the mechanism that will provide that, why is it that many with a vital vested interest do not recognize that?

I have talked to farmers on both sides of the issue. I have asked them what they are seeking. It always comes forward that they are seeking security for their families and for the continuation of their operations in spite of the fact that they might face a crop failure or the kinds of financial difficulties those in the farming community face from time to time when they have to go to the lending institutions to ask them to carry them over a certain period of time into the next fall or the next spring, depending upon the type of crops they are developing.

When I look at the motions in Group No. 4 I see a lack of democracy. This is unfortunate. We could have reached a balance everyone would have supported, certainly those in the agricultural community. I have not talked to anyone who is against the election of the board. That has formed part of the common ground that could bring the both sides together.

Transparency is another issue. Why can we not have a full and transparent audit of what the wheat board is doing on behalf of farmers? Why do we not have that? That is what they are seeking. I have not heard farmers say that they would be against the auditor general auditing the books of the wheat board as the auditor general does for every other department of government. Why not do that?

There are areas of common ground that we could be moving on. We could develop balance that would not threaten the existence of the wheat board. However, if the wheat board does not change and bring in reasonable alternatives that strike that balance, we may see the wheat board damaged in ways no one wants to see it damaged.

Questions have been raised with regard to whether or not the wheat board's monopoly is a violation of some of our international agreements such as the free trade agreement. Is there a subsidy? When ranchers can buy barley at prices below those of their competing neighbours to the south, is that a subsidy? What will the international tribunal have to say if there is a challenge there? Pressures are building up to challenge the wheat board monopoly.

We do not know for sure how those questions will be answered, but we should be looking ahead. If we want to maintain a marketing board called the Canadian Wheat Board, we should be addressing some of the concerns of farmers. Bill C-4 falls short of that. It is unfortunate because we have an opportunity to strike that balance. Many of the motions in Group No. 4 would lend themselves to striking that balance.

Some of my colleagues have touched on the the international code of ethics for Canadian business. What is the wheat board afraid of? Why would it not want to bind itself to the international code of ethics for Canadian businesses? Is there apprehension or fear? If so, what is it about? What is there about the international code of ethics for Canadian business that the Canadian Wheat Board finds offensive, or why is it reluctant to come under that code of ethics?

Farmers always take it in the neck. When there is a bad year, no one else suffers but them and those who rely upon a healthy agricultural society.

I was talking to representatives of the two railroads. When farmers put grain in a grain car and it sits more than three days, they have to pay a penalty of $40 per day. When there is a long shore strike or anything that prevents the grain from reaching the market and the ships are sitting offshore racking up demurrage penalties, who pays for that? The farmers pay for that.

I had a farmer say to me “What is wrong with the picture? I have to pay for the transportation of my grain to the port. I have to pay for the cleaning. The cleanings are sold and I receive no benefit”.

There is much wrong with that picture. We can look at Bill C-4 and ask whether it strikes the balance. It does not strike the balance. That is why I encourage all hon. members to take a close look at the amendments being offered. I feel there is a balance that we need within those amendments.

[Gary Lunn, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I trust I will have some latitude as this is my maiden speech.

[An hon. member]

Where have you been?

[Gary Lunn, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Where have I been? I have been in the House. I have written four maiden speeches and have been fully prepared at least three or four times, but the government brought closure and I was unable to make my speech.

Those in my riding watching would wonder why I would be speaking about the Canadian Wheat Board in the House as member for Saanich—Gulf Islands, especially my maiden speech. I would like it to be very meaningful and will get to it in a minute.

In all sincerity I want to speak a little about my predecessor who worked very hard. He was very well respected among all political parties in my riding, Mr. Jack Frazer. I pay tribute to Jack and to his wife, June, for the hard work and his commitment to the House for the four years preceding me.

It is an honour to stand in the House—and I have spoken a few times in question period—to represent the views of the constituents of Saanich—Gulf Islands who elected me with such an overwhelming majority and to ensure they are heard. I admit it has been a very frustrating experience for me because many times I have been silenced not only at this level but at committee as well. I have found it an incredibly frustrating experience not to be able to speak in the House and represent their views.

That brings me to the Group No. 4 amendments we are talking about today. I look at this issue as not so much the Canadian Wheat Board but what this is all about: democracy versus dictatorship and ethics.

These amendments could apply to all government ministries. That is what we are talking about. The government is proposing what it wants to call a mixed enterprise. I note that the western grain marketing panel in July 1996, after a year long study, suggested that the government needed to operate the Canadian Wheat Board like a business.

I am involved with the fisheries committee. Ironically, after touring both Atlantic Canada and western Canada, we heard exactly the same thing from some 15 to 20 communities, that government needed to operate the board like a business.

Here is what the Liberals are suggesting. We are to have an elected board. Lo and behold, what is their definition of democracy? They are going to allow 10 officials to be elected but they want to appoint five of their political hacks to the board.

More important, who are they appointing to this board and in what positions? This is what I find absolutely appalling. They are to appoint a president and a CEO to the wheat board.

With any company I know or that I have been involved with, I recognize the power and the influence these two positions have over that entire board of directors. The government is doing nothing. It is still a dictatorship. There is no democracy. That is what I find so frustrating.

I urge all members who are listening to really look at what this means. This institution, this House, represents democracy. I am here because I believe in democracy. We see troubles all over the world. They stem when a country leans toward dictatorship rather than democracy. What the government is suggesting is an absolute dictatorship and nothing less. It is going to appoint five members and the president and CEO to this board. It is going to have control of this organization. I admit I do not know a lot about it, but the farmers will have no input in the direction of where this goes. What we have is a dictatorship.

I would like this House to recognize what is going on. The last four speakers have been from one political party. The Canadian Wheat Board is probably the most influential board and the most important board to the prairie provinces. Out of this entire democracy, this whole House, who is standing up on their behalf? I do not hear anybody from the NDP. I do not hear anybody from the Tories, the Liberals or the Bloc. If anyone spoke before the last four speakers from those parties, then I will acknowledge that. When I walked into this House, the only party speaking up for these people is the Reform Party. This is a major bill affecting Canada. The next part is about ethics.

The hon. member for Prince George—Peace River has put forward this motion. He is trying to incorporate what the government has been pushing for.

The government has been pushing for all Canadian businesses and corporations to be signatories to the international code of ethics for Canadian business. That is common sense. It sounds simple. The government wants all businesses and corporations to sign on to an ethics code for Canadian businesses. Guess what? Not the Canadian Wheat Board. We have our hands in that one. Imagine if we had to have those guys live by the code. We saw all about ethics in question period today. I will not go there, I would be here all afternoon.

When it comes to ethics, the government is out the window, it has no idea. It is trying to push the private sector to have a code of ethics, but when it comes to the wheat board, no sir. That would be terrible, some of our people are there. They would never be able to abide by those rules.

Although I do not have a prepared speech, like I have had in the past, this is a very important debate. It is about democracy and it is about ethics. It is about a board that is going to affect the prairie provinces. Probably the most significant piece of legislation that affects these provinces is the Canadian Wheat Board. These people are left with a dictatorship. There have been recommendations to have it run like a corporation. The government is totally ignoring that. It is consistent with what I have observed in fisheries. We need to run it like a business, but no, it has to come under the tight control of this government. By appointing the president and CEO, the government is not willing to give that up. I think it is shameful.

The big points are democracy and ethics. I would encourage all the members in this House to have a hard look at this. I will come back later and speak on the other groups and motions.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is with great interest that I rise to speak to Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act in depth.

Naturally, the aim of the bill is to try to revitalize—and I say “try” to revitalize advisedly—the former Canadian Wheat Board, which was in my opinion a dictatorship where three, four, up to five patronage appointments could be made to the board of directors, paying fairly well it seems, since there was often someone knocking at the door of the agriculture department to take the job, which was not particularly high profile, but was well paid.

I said that they were trying to revitalize since, of the 15 directors, 10, two thirds of the positions, will be filled through a vote by the producers themselves. If there is someone interested in the operation of the Canadian Wheat Board, it is not the fellows from Prince Edward Island nor the farmers from Quebec, but western grain producers. They will have the authority, with the aid of a pencil, to appoint directors, and when the directors no longer prove satisfactory, they can put them out—the ten of them that is.

However, the government in its great wisdom has decided to keep five positions for itself. Four appointments will be made through the governor in council, but the other, the most prestigious, the lucrative one, the position of power, that of president, will be filled by appointment too.

The Bloc Quebecois has a very constructive suggestion for the Liberal government, and I would like to take a few seconds here to read it to you. It is Motion No. 6.

We are proposing that the president be appointed following consultation of the committee of the House of Commons that normally considers matters relating to agriculture. What exactly does this mean?

We have, here in the House of Commons, the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, chaired of course by a Liberal. There are eight Liberal MPs and six opposition members on this committee. Obviously, they control it. They could swallow us right up—eight against six, and add to that the chair who, like the supreme court, usually leans the same way, in the direction of the Liberals. Right now, they run it. I respect their right to do so.

I predict that the position of president will become a great Liberal patronage appointment. Earlier, while waiting to speak, I quickly cast about in my memory for the key appointments of members sitting in the House since I have been here to well paid, prestigious, unelected positions.

The names that came to mind were the former member for Ottawa—Vanier, Jean-Robert Gauthier, because I am allowed to say his name, who is now sitting as a senator in the other House, and David Berger, the former member from Montreal West, who gave up his spot, a safe Liberal riding, to one of our current good ministers. He was appointed ambassador to Israel.

This is known as a tactic to liberate ridings. Just recently, a little before the election—the promise was made before the election, but it was not made public until after, so as to keep voters happy—it was my good friend, the member for Beauce, Gilles Bernier, an independent—remember him? He sat not far from us.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The member for Bourassa on a point of order.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was fine with the member for Frontenac—Mégantic, but now I think he is off topic. I would like to hear what he has to say about Bill C-4, not a litany of government appointments.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

With respect, this group of amendments has to do with appointments to the board. The hon. member for Frontenac—Mégantic is relevant.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I taught for 27 years and in every class there was always one student who tried to disrupt the classroom. In this group of Liberals, we have the hon. member for Bourassa, whose behaviour is not that of a regular student but rather of an undisciplined one.

I invite you, Mr. Speaker, to draw on your authority and expel him if he continues to distract the members opposite. This House is no circus.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The member for Bourassa on another point of order.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think I am entitled to take part like everyone else and I am speaking on behalf of my constituents. I think the hon. member—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Resuming debate. The member for Frontenac—Mégantic.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I hope my time will not cut short off because of this sort of nonsense. You seem to be nodding your approval, and I thank you.

I was therefore saying that the Liberal Party has discovered another ploy, which is to liberate certain relatively safe ridings for friends that could take over. Incumbents are appointed to prestigious positions that are usually paid more than an MP, and this frees up the seat.

I wanted to make a prediction. The president of the future Canadian Wheat Board will be a Liberal. This Liberal is sitting across from us now, and probably does not know the first thing about the Canadian Wheat Board. We will pay for many years so that he can find out, and just as he is starting to get the idea, he will leave to collect his gold plated pension. He will then have two hefty pensions.

The Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, on which it is my great pleasure to sit with several of my colleagues whom I see in the House now, is a committee that I believe takes its work very seriously. It astonishes me that certain members opposite, who sit on the committee with me, do not wish to take on an additional, collective responsibility and voice their opinion on the future president of the Canadian Wheat Board.

For how many hours and weeks did the standing committee examine this problem? The entire committee trooped out west. We visited the four provinces. No one in the House, I am speaking about members, is more familiar with the problems of farmers and the Canadian Wheat Board than the 12 members now sitting on the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. I am offering my colleague, the member for Bourassa, an unparalleled opportunity to feel like his party, his prime minister, is giving him an additional responsibility. But he is not interested.

In closing, I wish to raise a final point. The Canadian Wheat Board has traditionally reported to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.

I do not know what is going on. When the Prime Minister shuffled his cabinet after the election, he put the former Minister of Agriculture in Natural Resources. No problem with that. But he did not see fit to leave the responsibility for the Canadian Wheat Board with our Minister of Agriculture. Why not? Too heavy a task? Incompetence? I am asking you the question, Mr. Speaker. I would like an answer from my colleagues over there, or better yet, from the Minister of Natural Resources.

Why has he grabbed on to this position, this role of directing the Canadian Wheat Board within the Department of Natural Resources? They do not seem to go together. We have a good Minister of Agriculture, who does the very best he can. Why not give him all the tools he needs? He is going to work for the Western producers, the grain producers, but when it comes time to talk about a very important tool, the Canadian Wheat Commission, he will say "For that, you need to see my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources".

I await that response, Mr. Speaker, and I would invite you to ask the party in power to support this motion on Bill C-4, which I consider a highly constructive motion.

[Werner Schmidt, Reform, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I was so thrilled when the hon. member for Crowfoot asked you to throw him a bun. I was hoping you would be able to do that because I wanted to catch it before it reached him. I understand they are extremely delectable.

This afternoon I want to commend you, Mr. Speaker, for recognizing the significance of agriculture in Western Canada. But before I go into the details of the Group No. 4 amendments, I wish to pay a tribute to the farmers of Canada.

Farmers are among our most productive people. They are also among our most reliable people. These are the people who understand ethics probably better than anyone else. These are the people who recognize the difference between controlling your environment or having so much of what you do controlled by the environment itself.

How many farmers have you seen, Mr. Speaker, who have suffered from the ravages of nature as it cuts across their crop with a hail storm or a wind storm or whatever the case might be? These people are humble people. They recognize the difference between what they can do and what the creator can do.

It is time that we recognized that our agricultural community, that community which produces the food all of us need to eat and sustain ourselves, this community and this economy is supported to a large degree by the farmers who till the land, who bring the various plants into production and who carefully nurture what it is that needs to happen.

Farmers are imaginative people. They are innovative people. They have produced things that it was not possible for us to create many years ago. They have brought into the world a wheat production in particular that is the object of great envy from a lot of other countries which do not have the weather, do not have the land, do not have the technology to do what our farmers can do.

We have created the Canadian Wheat Board, a board which was to rationalize the marketing of the commodities wheat and barley. But we are going to talk about wheat or at least that is what I am going to do. This is a very significant part of our agricultural community.

There are four principles which must apply if we are going to have a sound board that is going to manage the affairs of something that is not only important to Canada, not only important to a major sector of the Canadian economy, but has international significance. It has a significance to other countries of the world whose sustenance depend upon the proper production of wheat in this country of ours.

These are the four principles: Whatever management has done must be done according to the interests or in the interests of farmers. It must be based on sound governance and principles of sound governance. It must be based on principles of sound management. Finally, the decisions and operations of such a board must be clear, be auditable and be governed by the principle of prudence both in the management of the money given to the board and also in terms of the commodity it administers. Let us examine each of these principles in turn.

First, is the board operating in the interests of farmers? A fair return for the product they produce is what the farmers want. They do not want an exorbitant high price. They do not want a diminished price that is excessively low. They want a just price, a price that can be defended wherever they go and with whatever land is involved. They want that to be the case within Canada and internationally.

They want something else. They want a sustainable income. They want some idea as to what will be happening to the price of wheat and how they will be able to manage the planting, harvesting, storage and marketing of wheat in such a way that their income is sustained.

They want something else. They not only want to sustain their incomes, they want to be able to have some kind of predictability.

Mr. Speaker, you know in the business you operate that you prepare a business plan to start the business. Then you prepare a cash flow statement and you prepare a marketing plan which probably goes five years into the future. It outlines cash flow for the initial year. Then it is moved forward to the second year, the third year, the fourth year and the fifth year. You begin to build the cost structures, the increases, revenues and the profitability of your business into the plan.

That is what the farmers are looking for. It is a lot more difficult to do that in the farming community. Nevertheless that is in the interests of the farmers. That is the first principle which needs to be observed by this board.

The second principle is one of sound governance. The primary issue is that of democracy. In a democracy the outcome of an event, to decide who is going to do what or to rule what, is in the terms of a franchise, a vote. The person or group that gets the most votes is the group that carries the day. That is not the case with the wheat board.

For some reason or other the governing structure here is one of appointment. The determination of what happens in this board is the subject of determination by the minister of agriculture. That may at one very abstract level be considered to be a form of democracy but that is dictatorship within a democracy which is somewhat contradictory. It is not only somewhat contradictory but I suggest that it is contradictory.

For that reason all of the members of this House should carefully examine the amendment presented by the member for Prince George—Peace River. I believe he has a very sound statement to make.

When a bill is presented to the House, as Bill C-4 was presented, and there are 48 amendments, that should give cause to everyone in this House to ask what is wrong with this bill. Forty-eight different things that are found to be somewhat in error or to have a shortfall. If nothing else, we should think about that.

I have just covered the first two principles, the interests of the farmers and sound government. I do not think the board acts in the interests of the farmers. In terms of sound government, the board is not determined by democratic principles or by vote.

The third principle relates to the application of governance. This has to do with looking at the policies and the principles that are involved. If they are going to do this properly they will do it in terms of fairness, justice, transparency, accountability and responsibility. All those things need to be there.

Wheat board policies must guide the action very clearly. Regulations should be such that they allow farmers to recognize fairness and justice in the way permit books are issued, in the way there is access to storage, in the way there is access to transportation and so on.

We also need to recognize that there need to be clear lines of responsibility. There is no such indication in Bill C-4. There is no clear line of responsibility.

If a company hired a president, and if the company was not responsible and the president was not accountable, we would say “What kind of deal is this? We are not having anything to do with it”.

To whom is the CEO responsible? In this case it is to the minister.

I do not see how any self-respecting farmer would allow himself to be appointed to this particular board. In effect, they have no power. All the power rests with the minister in the final analysis.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That is wrong.

[Werner Schmidt, Reform, Kelowna, BC]

The president is accountable not to the board; the president is accountable to the minister. He has a divided personality.

[An hon. member]

Read the act.

[Werner Schmidt, Reform, Kelowna, BC]

He is supposed to listen to the board on the one hand and he is supposed to listen to the minister on the other. So he will sit on the fence and will get cut right down the middle. He will not know what he is. If he does not side with the minister, the minister will say “Sorry, we do not need you any more”. That is a critical point.

What about if disciplinary action has to be taken? Who will do it? Will the board do it or will the minister do it? These things are not clear.

What about the release of information? What kind of information will be released by the board to the farmers? What kind of information will be released by the board to the minister? What information will be released by the minister to the board? What information will be released by the board to the president, to the minister, by the minister to the president, and so on?

There are all kinds of opportunities for misinformation, not enough information and selected information in order to produce a particular result.

These are some of the things which are wrong with this bill.

Let it be known that the farmers are good people and that the Canadian Wheat Board needs to be amended in terms of the amendments which have been presented to Bill C-4.