House of Commons Hansard #55 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was wheat.
John Harvard Liberal Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB
Yes, I spent the first 19 years of my life on a farm. I happen to know a considerable amount about farming. The hon. member can throw that at me all he likes. I spent a good many years on a farm and I am very proud of it.
Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC
Mr. Speaker, I understand that the debate is getting a bit heated on both sides, but I would appreciate it if the hon. member would at least address his comments through the Chair.
Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders
The Deputy Speaker
The hon. member, I notice, had started to do that having responded to an admonition from the Chair in that regard.
John Harvard Liberal Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB
Mr. Speaker, that is the only good advice I have heard from them all afternoon.
One of the members of the Reform Party said that he wanted me to address at least one aspect of the bill. Let me do that. If you listened to the Reform Party and you did not have the facts, you would quickly believe this changed wheat board would still be in the hands of the federal government.
The fact is the new wheat board will have 15 directors, 10 of whom will be elected directly by farmers and only 5 will be appointed by the government. The last time I checked my arithmetic 10 constitutes a full majority. I would think that the directors elected by the farmers would enjoy majority support on that board. I do not want to hear any more of this nonsense that the farmers will still not have an opportunity to run the board. Under Bill C-4 farmers will be put in the driver's seat. They will run the board. The farmers will run the show and the federal government will be in partnership with them.
Most farmers on the prairies who are at least acquainted with Bill C-4 realize this is the opportunity for them to take over the wheat board and run it to their benefit, not to the benefit of the federal government and certainly not to the benefit of the Reform Party.
John Reynolds Reform West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC
Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that we have gone along with the debate for a long period of time and now we hear a number of Liberals get up to comment on this bill.
It was quite interesting to listen to the parliamentary secretary. I heard from some of my colleagues on the prairies that he was booed off the stage by farmers in Saskatchewan. I can understand why. He did not talk about any amendments until the end of his speech. I am not from the prairies but I am going to talk about this bill because it has to do with the rights of people.
The member for Bourassa also made some comments. He talked about people acting disgracefully in this House. I was here when we had the debates on language and schools in Quebec and Newfoundland. I heard many comments from the Liberals that Reform members should not be talking about that. I thought that was very unsatisfactory. I have not heard one Reformer talk about what somebody from the other side of the House cannot say. We just want to know that what they say means something.
People should know that my colleague who proposed the amendments knows a lot about this, as do his colleagues. We are not here to separate Canada. We are here to make sure that the people of western Canada, the majority of whom we represent, will get what they deserve from this government in Ottawa.
I heard that member for Bourassa say that we were attacking him because he is from Quebec. That is the most shameful thing I have heard since I have been back in this House for the current Parliament. I wonder if the reason there are more Bloc members than Liberals in the province of Quebec is Liberals are making statements like that. If they wonder why there are more Reformers in the west than there are Liberals, it it because of conversations like that of the hon. member for Bourassa in this House. Using his words, it is disgraceful to hear that kind of talk in this House.
The Reform Party is here to speak on behalf of farmers in western Canada, which is why we have the majority of the members in western Canada. We have been speaking on behalf of farmers since this party was formed. We have also been listening to the farmers in western Canada, something that party has not done. The parliamentary secretary can get booed off stages in the west any time he wants. We will welcome him back to western Canada any time at all. He can come out this weekend if he wants to. We would like to boo him off the stage again.
The member for Simcoe—Grey also made comments. He is from Ontario and he talks about us being the Bloc in sheep's clothing. I will tell the member for Simcoe—Grey that they have all the seats in Ontario right now but they should look at what happened to their party in western Canada and in Quebec. They should look at what happened to their party in Atlantic Canada last time. The Liberal Party has only Ontario left. The Liberals should understand that if they do not want to listen to the people in western Canada or in Quebec or in Atlantic Canada, they will lose Ontario next time. The people of Canada will get the government they really want in Canada.
The member for Simcoe—Grey talked about appointing directors. In some of the amendments here propose a fully elected board. Is that not unusual? Which one of us would want to invest any money that the Minister of Finance would agree with this? When having a board of directors they should all be elected by the people who are using them.
When we go out and buy stock in the marketplace we are not going to buy it from a company that appoints its own directors and does not get them elected by the shareholders. That is what this party is asking for here. It makes common business sense. I am surprised the Minister of Finance has not said he agrees with our amendment and gets his colleagues to change their minds.
Who would agree that this Liberal Party appointing directors would appoint the people who would know something about wheat? The Liberals appointed Anna Terrana to the immigration appeal board last week, a defeated Liberal candidate in the last election. What does she know about that? But she is on the board. I do not have to say much more, do I? That one is good enough, but I can go down a big list. Sharon Carstairs, former Manitoba Liberal leader, was appointed to the Senate. We can go on and on about these appointments.
But I think we only have to make one for the average person who is listening tonight. I am so glad the member for Bourassa got up, the member for Simcoe—Grey and the parliamentary secretary. It really makes our point in western Canada that these Liberals do not understand what is happening in Canada. That is why they do not win any seats anymore. When the rest of Canadians see it, they are going to say the same thing.
We have all these amendments put by my colleague. Yet on the other side they get up and attack us on our right to say what we want to say and attack us on our right to free speech. But they do not want to talk about the amendments.
One amendment states that the board of directors should be responsible for the hiring and firing of the president, not the minister. The president cannot be beholden to the minister, and he is also the CEO. I do not think there is one member on the Liberal side who would agree to go on a board of directors where an outsider can appoint the president and the CEO. What are they going to direct? They are just a bunch of puppets. Anybody on that board is beholden to the minister. Nobody with any right mind would be appointed to this board and have the responsibilities that a board had when their final decisions are not made by the president and CEO but by a minister of this government.
One could go on and on, but I do not think I really have to. This party is speaking for the people in western Canada, speaking for those farmers who do not want to be told by a minister in Ottawa what their board can or cannot be doing. They want to make sure all 15 members are elected. That is the way it should be.
I am sure all those Canadians listening to this debate cannot understand why the Liberals on that side want to get up and make their comments about why we are doing certain things, trying to accuse us of being anti-Quebec in a debate like this. It is just absolutely ridiculous. I have never hard anything so—
John Reynolds Reform West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC
Mr. Speaker, the member is saying we are anti-Quebec. That is absolutely untrue. That member should come out and visit British Columbia once in a while. He should come out and visit western Canada. He should know that I also grew up in the province of Quebec and understand it, perhaps not as well as he does because he is still there and I grant him that, but I can tell him there is nobody in this party who is anti-Quebec. We are pro-Canadian. His cheap attacks on this party are not going to go very far. He should pay attention as to why the Bloc in Quebec has more seats than the Liberal Party. That is what he should be paying attention to and he should be listening to people in this debate.
We have put some good amendments forward and I think the Liberals should take the time to read those amendments and when they vote on them make sure that they pass.
Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders
The Deputy Speaker
Is the House ready for the question.
Canadian Wheat Board ActGovernment Orders
The Deputy Speaker
Pursuant to agreement made Wednesday, November 19, 1997, all questions on the motions in Group No. 4 are deemed put and the recorded divisions are deemed requested and deemed deferred.
The House will now proceed to the motions in Group No. 5. Pursuant to agreement made Wednesday, November 19, 1997 all motions in Group No. 5, are deemed proposed and seconded. This group contains Motions Nos. 20 to 30, 32, 33, 34, 45 and 47.
Jean-Guy Chrétien Bloc Frontenac—Mégantic, QC
moved:
Motion No. 20
That Bill C-4, in Clause 4, be amended by adding after line 37 on page 7 the following:
“(4) Notwithstanding subsection (2), a department within the meaning of the Financial Administration Act includes the Board for the purposes of the Auditor General Act.”
Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
moved:
Motion No. 21
That Bill C-4, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing lines 38 and 39 on page 7 with the following:
“5. The heading before section 5 and section 5 of the Act are replaced with the following:
Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC
moved:
Motion No. 22
That Bill C-4, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing lines 38 and 39 on page 7 with the following:
“ 5. The heading before section 5 and section 5 of the Act are replaced with the following:
Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK
moved:
Motion No. 23
That Bill C-4, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing lines 38 and 39 on page 7 with the following:
“5. Section 5 of the Act and the heading preceding it are by the following:
Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC
moved:
Motion No. 24
That Bill C-4, in Clause 6, be amended
(a) by deleting lines 1 to 3 on page 8.
(b) by deleting lines 28 to 35 on page 8.
Dick Proctor NDP Palliser, SK
moved:
Motion No. 25
That Bill C-4, in Clause 6, be amended by deleting lines 28 to 46 on page 8 and lines 1 to 11 on page 9.
Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC
moved:
Motion No. 26
That Bill C-4, in Clause 6, be amended by deleting lines 1 to 7 on page 9.
Motion No. 27
That Bill C-4 be amended by deleting Clause 7.
Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK
moved:
Motion No. 28
That Bill C-4, in Clause 7, be amended by replacing lines 17 and 18 on page 9 with the following:
“7. Section 7 of the Act is replaced by the following:”
(1.1) Subsection (1) shall not be interpreted to prevent the Corporation making a contract to sell a type of grain at a price that is lower than normal in order to secure other sales of the same type of grain that will result in the best return to producers of that type over a period of time.
Motion No. 29
That Bill C-4, in Clause 7, be amended by replacing lines 25 to 27 on page 9 with the following:
“made elsewhere in this Act, shall be used to maximize the return on the sale of grain to producers of the wheat by such means as the Corporation may determine, including the making of additional payments to the persons who are entitled to receive payments in respect of the wheat sold in that crop year by the Corporation.”
Dick Proctor NDP Palliser, SK
moved:
Motion No. 30
That Bill C-4, in Clause 7, be amended by replacing lines 28 to 39 on page 9 with the following:
“(3) Losses sustained by the Corporation
(a) from its operations under Part III in relation to any pool period fixed there-under, during that pool period, or
(b) from its operations under this Act under any crop year, for which no provision is made in any other Part, shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.”
Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC
moved:
Motion No. 32
That Bill C-4 be amended by adding after line 3, on page 10, the following:
“ 8.1 Section 9 of the act is amended by adding after paragraph 9(1)(e) the following:
(f) show such particulars and furnish such information as requested for the purpose of an audit by the Auditor General of Canada.
(g) provide such records and information as requested under the Access to Information Act. The corporation shall continue to be a “government institution” within the meaning of the Access to Information Act.”
Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
moved:
Motion No. 33
That Bill C-4, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing lines 6 to 15 on page 10 with the following:
“10. Section 18 of the act is repealed.”
Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC
moved:
Motion No. 34
That Bill C-4, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing lines 6 to 15, on page 10 with the following:
“ 10. The heading before section 18 and section 18 of the Act are repealed.”
Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK
moved:
Motion No. 45
That Bill C-4 be amended by adding after line 40, on page 21, the following:
“30.1 (1) The Auditor General for Canada Shall examine the operations of the Corporation over the five year period ending December 31, 2002 and shall determine whether the Corporation has met its object as described in section 5, and report to the Minister thereon no later than September 1, 2003.
(2) The minister shall cause the report to be laid before both Houses of parliament on one of the first three days on which the House next sits.
(3) The report shall be deemed referred to such committee of the House of Commons as is established to consider matters relating to agriculture.
(4) Unless the committee has reported to the House and the House as concurred in the report or amended the report and concurred in it as amended by December 31, 2003 and the report or amended report is in a form that concludes that the Corporation has substantially met its object for the five year period, this Act is repealed on June 30, 2004.
(5) If the Governor in Council determines that the process described in subsections (1) to (4) has been delayed by emergency circumstances, the Governor in Council may, by order, defer the repeal of this Act by a period not exceeding twelve months.”
Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC
moved:
Motion No. 47
That Bill C-4, in Clause 36, be amended by deleting lines 6 to 21 on page 24.
Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure for me to get up and address the group 5 amendments to Bill C-4, the Canadian Wheat Board Act.
At the outset of my remarks directed at the group 5 amendments, I would note that a lot of the comments we have just heard from the government side really indicate, as the member from Vancouver just indicated, how little the Liberals actually understand their own piece of legislation. I do not believe the comments over the past half hour indicate that they have even read the amendments we are supposed to be debating.
Indeed the parliamentary secretary, when he rose a few minutes ago, spoke for his 10 minute allotment and never once mentioned the amendments. All he did was rant and rail against Reform's trying to raise issues on behalf of Canadian farmers.
As with the other groups, there are a number of amendments in group 5, about 16 or 17. Obviously no individual speaker trying to address 16 or 17 substantive amendments to a piece of legislation can do them justice in a mere 10 minute speech. However, I will try to direct my comments at some and bring up some other issues about Bill C-4 that I feel are relevant.
One of the amendments contained in group 5 is Motion No. 22. This commits the Canadian Wheat Board to operating in the best interest of farmers. Previously the Canadian Wheat Board has simply been committed to orderly marketing. A lot of my colleagues remarked about that during their recent presentations today and the fact that it follows up on a previous amendment, I believe Motion No. 1, proposed by my colleague from Yorkton—Melville, which was to add a preamble to the bill that would kind of set the stage for the legislation itself and the fact that the Canadian Wheat Board Act should be there to operate in the best interest of the farmers who fall under the act. That would make sense.
Motion No. 22 put forward my me on behalf of the official opposition would do exactly that. It would require that the Canadian Wheat Board operate in the best interest of the producers, not necessarily just to conduct orderly marketing of grain, which might often be in direct conflict to what would be in the best interest of producers.
Also in group 5 there are a couple of other motions, 28 and 29, put forward by my colleague from Yorkton—Melville, which are also substantive amendments that go toward ensuring that the Canadian Wheat Board operates in the best interest of farmers.
I would like to digress for a moment and talk about a question of privilege I raised a while back that was ruled on by the Speaker. I am not here tonight, especially at this late hour, to debate, nor do I even have the right to debate, that ruling. I am quite willing to acknowledge that the Speaker ruled on that question of privilege, but I would like to raise the issue because I have had no opportunity up until now to reply to the minister's statements connected to that question. The minister's argument for holding a meeting in Regina and having farm groups come to it over the Christmas break was that he was merely doing the same as I and my Reform colleagues. He was merely exercising his MP right to consult with Canadians about a piece of legislation, which is completely understandable.
However, I submit that is simply hogwash. The farm groups that went to that meeting told me that he had no intention to consult on anything concerning the bill.
The intention was to talk about the election of the directors, how you would go about electing the board of directors. In other words, once Bill C-4 is enacted, is passed into law, there will have to be regulations brought forward, as there is for all legislation once it is passed into law. He was merely there to try and get input into regulations.
My point, and I still believe this is relevant, is how a minister of the crown could conduct himself in a fashion that would lead one to believe the bill is already law. We are not going to talk about amendments as to how many directors should be elected versus appointed. We do not want to talk about that. We want to talk about how to actually accomplish the election.
I do not think that is right, and I believe most farmers do not think that is right. That is why the majority of the farm organizations at that meeting walked out in total disgust. Another farm group, I believe it was the National Farmers Union, was protesting outside the building where the meeting was being held.
There is another point I would like to make in the time I have left. In the debate today on the Group No. 4 amendments, by my calculations 19 Reform members of Parliament, four Liberals, one Bloc and a couple of NDP spoke to those amendments. The hon. member from the Progressive Conservatives says that he spoke. He did, as I did. He spoke in November when we adjourned the debate on the Group No. 4 amendments. I was referring to today. I think my numbers are fairly accurate.
What we are saying on this side is not that the government members should not be speaking, should not be standing in their place and addressing the substantive amendments. We are saying that they should be. Only four of them spoke, and as I already noted, one of them, the parliamentary secretary, did not talk about the amendments at all. All he did was rant and rave against those darn Reformers, how dare they use up time actually talking about legislation. What a concept, that we are actually here in this place to talk about legislation. How dare we. It boggles the mind.
Mr. Speaker, I could go on for hours, but I believe I only have two and a half minutes left.
I will wrap up the last couple of minutes of my much too brief talk on Motion No. 32. What would Motion No. 32 accomplish were it to be passed? Were the hon. members actually to read it, to try and understand it, to try and understand where western farmers are coming from on this issue, and actually vote for an amendment based on common sense versus how they are told to vote, Motion No. 32 would have the Canadian Wheat Board come under the auditor general so that he could actually perform an audit.
Interestingly enough, on the front page of today's Hill Times there is a story on how the auditor general had been requesting to audit the new CPP fund that is going to be set up under Bill C-2. As well he wanted to audit the Canadian Wheat Board under Bill C-4. That is exactly what this Reform amendment would accomplish.
As well it would bring the Canadian Wheat Board under access to information so that there would be true transparency. Western Canadian farmers—quite a number of whom I might add reside right here in the Reform ranks—could see what the Canadian Wheat Board was doing. They could put forward access to information requests and find out exactly what decisions were being made by the Canadian Wheat Board. I believe that makes sense.
I believe that when it comes to the votes on the report stage amendments what we are going to find is that the trained seals over there—and they have already used that term tonight directed at themselves and I am merely agreeing with them—will vote down these substantive amendments without giving them any thought whatsoever merely because somebody over there has told them how to vote.
Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Mr. Speaker, it is with some trepidation that I rise once again to speak to Bill C-4. It has been a while since this bill first came before the House in November. I say it is with trepidation because I sit on the agriculture and agri-food committee and at that time it was of the utmost urgency that this piece of legislation come forward so that it could be passed prior to the Christmas break. Then the government could look at the proposals for the election of 10 of the 15 members of the board of directors. Now it is February and I wonder why there was that urgency in committee.
We asked as a committee to once again speak to the minister who is responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board. We asked that he come forward to actually hear what had been said by the numerous witnesses who shared with us their concerns and their desires with respect to changes to this legislation. Unfortunately the minister could not appear before the committee because there was an urgency to get the bill back to the House.
We also tried to make a comparison between the Ontario Wheat Board and the Canadian Wheat Board to see if there were other options available to the government, the directors with respect to the operation of the Canadian Wheat Board. Again there was not enough time and the bill had to be returned to the House.
I was concerned that we had taken too long by running it into February and perhaps a bit longer.
I have a lot of respect for government members. I also have respect for the legislative process. I know full well that legislation which is passed is not always perfect. Even legislation which is in place today is amended. Time unfortunately tires some pieces of legislation and they have to be amended to bring them up to present standards, in this case the 21st century.
As legislators and as parliamentarians it behoves all of us, particularly the government which has put the legislation forward, to ensure that it is the very best piece of legislation which can be put forward. Obviously in this case we must ensure that the customer or the producer is taken care of to the best of our ability.
There are 48 amendments which have been put forward. Some of the amendments are good. They can change this legislation to make it better than what it is right now. I will speak to some of those amendments.
I have tabled two amendments in this particular grouping. There are a number of amendments in this grouping which are very good. I hope the government will listen and that some of these amendments will be supported by all parties to make the legislation better.
I am not naive enough to believe that this legislation will not go through. It will. The government has a majority and it wishes to put through this legislation. It will go through. However it could be made better. There are two ways of making it better. I have tabled two amendments.
One of them is Motion No. 21. Let me clarify that amendment. It says that the corporation is incorporated with the object of marketing grain grown in Canada in the best interests of farmers to maximize their return. That is a good amendment. It does not necessarily detract from the legislation the government has put forward, but it adds to the legislation.
I cannot believe the government cannot see that the Canadian Wheat Board should be there for the producers. Not for the corporation, not for the Government of Canada, not for the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, not for some yet to be named chief executive officer who is going to be appointed by government. It is there for the producers. Why not put it in the legislation that in fact it is there to make sure that the best returns are going to be generated by that producer.
This amendment clarifies the mandate of the Canadian Wheat Board. Rather than acting in the best interests of the corporation, the corporation is incorporated with the object of marketing grain grown in Canada in the best interests of the farmers to maximize their return. Does that not make sense? It is a good amendment. I believe this is self-explanatory. After all, the Canadian Wheat Board should work on behalf of the farmers, not the corporation.
A recent historical analysis of the Canadian Wheat Board aptly summarizes the original intent of the board. Until World War II the Canadian Wheat Board was a government owned agency with a mandate to operate in the best interests of the producers.
Its primary mission was to act as a guarantor of floor prices for wheat, setting a price it was willing to pay for grain, the initial payments and letting the market determine whether or not producers sold their crop on the open market or to the wheat board. Has the Canadian Wheat Board not wandered from its original mandate? Why? The question must be asked.
There is another amendment I have tabled in this grouping. Motion No. 33 deals with section 18 of the act. It regards the repealing directives given by the minister and not the board. It is integral that this section of the act is repealed because it gives the GIC the power to give directions to the board with respect to the manner in which any of its operations, powers and duties are conducted.
I believe that if the minister responsible for the CWB is truly going to have a board that is transparent, accountable and democratic for the board, the board should have complete power over the operations. If the board does not have the complete power, then the democratic changes under Bill C-4 are merely cosmetic. I cannot stress that enough. The board has to have power over itself in order to be able to provide the necessary service to Canadian producers.
There are a couple of other areas within this grouping. There are a number of amendments. As a previous speaker indicated, unfortunately time is of a premium. All those items cannot be spoken to as I am sure lots of us would like to do. Again I wish, I hope and I plead that the government listen to some of these good amendments because the legislation can be made better.
I find it very interesting that a piece of legislation can be tabled and can basically alienate everyone. We have heard members from the Liberal government say that this is a good piece of legislation and everybody supports it because of the barley plebiscite, because they have heard these people and they have heard those people.
The fact of the matter is that I do listen to the people. I have heard them. Yes there are a number of those people who want the Canadian Wheat Board exactly the way it is today, no changes at all. That probably speaks to the fact that we must move into the 21st century. There have to be changes. There have to be amendments. There has to be adapting in order to get into a globalized market system that we have now as opposed to what it was in 1943.
In saying that, the minister of the Canadian Wheat Board has somehow taken a piece of legislation and alienated everyone. No one, even those who want to keep the board, likes this piece of legislation. Even those who do not want to get rid of the board do not like this piece of legislation.
The majority of the farmers who want to have some flexibility, who want to have some options do not like this legislation. That itself speaks to the need to listen to rational amendments and do so logically. Do not do it just because a minister says he wants this piece of legislation. Listen, read, look and support some of these amendments. The legislation will be better.
There are two other areas that are dealt with in this grouping. One is the elimination of the contingency fund. We would support the elimination of the contingency fund for the simple reason the contingency fund seems to be a way for the government to get away from one of the pillars of the Canadian Wheat Board, that is the initial payments guarantee.
It is also a tax that does not have any parameters to it. It does not allow the customer, the producer, to say how this is going to affect them. A contingency fund could be anywhere from $500 million to $1 billion collected from the same producers, for what purpose and for what reason. The contingency fund could and should be done away with. In fact, the government wants to maintain its control over the board, like it will with the directors and with the CEO.
The last point is the subject of access to information. There is only one other organization that has the same restrictions for access for information and that is CSIS. There is absolutely no reason why, as a producer owned operation, we should not have ability to have access to the information of that organization. If there is nothing to hide then do not hide it. Access to information should be built into this piece of legislation.
Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Speaker. I wish I had more time but there is Group No. 6.