Mr. Speaker, I suspect members opposite do not like what I am saying. I am sure they will not like what I am about to say.
The whole aspect of delivering justice to the Canadian people is one where this party would strongly disagree with anything that the justice critic opposite or any of his colleagues would have to say. Their solution to providing justice in this country is to change the way the government works in terms of the relationship with the provinces and municipalities.
The member might not think it is on topic but it clearly is because everything that goes on in the estimates debate has to do with what this government is spending. If there is too much spent in one area, it cannot be spent in another. That is fairly fundamental and simple for the Canadian people to understand.
What the Reform would do is totally turn our Confederation upside down. I do not see the justice in that. Let me share an example. This is from the so-called new Canada act that Reform has brought forward. For the member's comfort I will relate it back to the issue at hand here.
The Reform Party's suggestion is that the Government of Canada hereby recognize municipal governments as the first level of government and agrees to ensure municipal government representation at federal-provincial conferences.
I was a councillor for almost 10 years. My wife sits on municipal council in Mississauga in the region of Peel. I have very strong roots in municipal government.
When we look at the impact of policing, at the impact of clogged up courts, at the backlog that exists in our community and we look at the cost of crime in our community, our municipal governments are very much impacted by the justice estimates and by the entire justice system. The Reform Party suggests it will recognize them in some sort of special category.
What Reform does not say is that it is going to transfer all powers in this federation to the provinces. Guess what happens when that is done? Guess who takes it in the end? It is the municipalities because they are creatures of the provincial governments. They indeed rely on the fairness of provincial governments to redistribute and pass on assistance in the form of transfer payments for social services, education, health care and justice. Municipalities rely on the provinces. Yet Reform would give with one hand and take away with the other hand and put all of the pressure on the property tax.
What we would have I would argue is a justice system under the Reform Party that simply would not have the strength of the national system. It would not have the backing of the national taxpayer and the strength of a united Canada. Indeed it would be put out to the provincial level which in turn would foist it off on the municipalities and they would wind up putting it on to the property taxpayer.
I do not care what estimates we want to talk about or debate in this place. I would remind members opposite that there is only one taxpayer and that taxpayer pays property tax, sales tax, provincial taxes and federal taxes. People just do not buy the rejigging that sounds like wonderful stuff by the Reform Party. It is a matter of trust.
If we want to talk about who should be responsible for spending the justice dollar, because that is what we are talking about here, should it be the federal government?
Would the Canadian taxpayers trust someone, and those members might not like this example, who said “I am not going to do this,” and then got elected and immediately did it. “I am not going to accept the limo,” and now rides around in a limo. “I am not going to live in Stornoway,” and now lives in Stornoway.
Would the Canadian people trust a party with the estimates in the justice department that was actually entering into negotiations with the party that wants to destroy the country? They would form what was it called, the Re-Bloc party. Imagine a justice system that was run by some coalition, separatists yanking power away from the central federation, trying to take everything back into their hands so they can do it their way, and another party bent on regional disparities. Imagine what kind of a justice system that would be. I was asked to speak about justice issues and I am doing that.
I see the hon. member for Saint John who I was going to suggest should indeed be the leader of the united right. There might then at least be some type of tempering, instead of the extremists, instead of this particular leader of this particular party.
The question is what are the average Canadians' views of politicians and what they stand for and what they say they will do?
We are talking about things that are as critical and as important as the administration of justice in this country. This country was built on democratic principles that are envied all over the world. We are not only envied for our justice system, we are also envied for the success that we have had with our fiscal programs since 1993.
In fact, the deputy minister of finance, Mr. Scott, appeared before the public accounts committee earlier today. This certainly impacts on justice estimates because there is only so much money to go around in every department. Every department must get its allocation and we would say that our justice system and our justice department should indeed have clear access to a fair allocation of the national revenue.
The deputy minister talked about what a job this government has done since 1993. It has put the justice department and every other department on firm, sound financial footing. There is no question that without fiscal responsibility there would be no justice. There is no question that without strong leadership there would be no justice.
It is absolutely clear to me that the policies that are espoused by the Reform politicians to totally denigrate the Canadian institution, to totally denigrate the justice system and to turn it over to the hands of pork-barrel politicians is wrong. It is not justice. It is not something this government or the Canadian people will tolerate, no matter how much they get up with their puffery and their nonsense. The Canadian people know that in Reform's policies there is clearly no justice.
