Debates of Oct. 28th, 1999

Air Transportation

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, there were meetings with Air Canada and Canadian International Airlines. It was public knowledge that Mr. Benson, Canadian International Airlines' CEO, had begun looking for investors. That was common knowledge. I imagine that, during the discussions, I alluded to something which was in the public domain.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us where he got the idea, back in June, of a takeover and a merger of the two carriers by an independent investor, if not through his discussions with Onex chairman Gerry Schwartz?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I already told the House that Mr. Benson himself informed me on June 25 that he had found an investor who intended to merge the two air carriers, and that this investor was Onex.

Agriculture

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Prairie farmers have pleaded with the Prime Minister to go west, to go to Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and to meet with farm families to see for himself the depth of the crisis. However the Prime Minister refused. He would not go to them and so they have come to him.

What does the Prime Minister do? Instead of listening, instead of acting, he sandbags them with numbers. My question is to the Prime Minister. Will there be new money for desperate prairie farmers? Yes or no.

[The Speaker]

Hon. members will address all their questions to the Speaker.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this year it was $900 million of new money which was put on the table by the federal government on top of the programs that existed before.

For me, $900 million is a lot of money. It is not my money. It is taxpayers' money. We are working with the provincial governments to see how we can make sure that the money is distributed as equitably as possible and as quickly as possible.

We are working with the provincial governments to see what can be improved in the proposition. The future of farming in the west has been discussed over a long period of time between the provincial and federal governments.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister refuses to understand the gravity of the farm crisis. Thousands of family farms are going under. So are farm dependent businesses. Farm communities are suffering their worst farm crisis since the Great Depression. The whole prairie economy is deeply affected.

The only thing that the Prime Minister is willing to do is launch a numbers war. When will the Prime Minister stop acting like a bean counter without a heart?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of beans for $900 million, I guess, and it would take a long time to count them one by one.

I just say that we are taking the problem very seriously. We are talking very seriously with serious people, as I have done this morning with the Premier of Saskatchewan and the Premier of Manitoba, but we can see that the kid daughter in Ottawa is just playing politics.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the agriculture minister just said that there was $3.9 billion in agriculture support from the provinces and the federal government.

In 1993, in the last budget of the Progressive Conservative Party, between provincial and federal contributions there was $7.1 billion in farm support. Will the minister please stand and say when he will put the rest of the money back into farmers' pockets.

[Lyle Vanclief, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I am surprised the hon. member brought that up. In 1993 this country had a $42 billion deficit. If the hon. member's party had not built up the deficit we would not have had to make the changes. All Canadians contributed so that we could once again have sustainability in the industry and be able to help with $900 million, as we have.

The hon. member should listen a little closer. I will give him the benefit of the doubt, but I said $3.5 billion, not $3.9 billion. He should not give out the wrong numbers.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is $3.9 billion if the minister would look at his numbers.

The $42 billion debt comes up constantly. That was done on the backs of agriculture. That was done on the backs of farmers. Farmers do not want to hear about that. What they want to hear about are solutions.

When will the minister put back the $3 billion that he took out of agriculture and help save Canadian farmers?

[Lyle Vanclief, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, this government has helped farmers in a lot of ways, with the safety net as well as in many other ways, including the fact that interest rates are considerably lower. That means millions of dollars for farmers every year. Thank goodness interest rates are not where they were when the hon. member's party was in power. Our farmers would be in even worse shape than they are at the present time and we would not be able to help them as a government.

What we have done as a government has allowed us to be as helpful as we are being. We wish we had more resources. We would like to have more resources. But unlike that party when it was in power, we know there is a limit.

Employment Insurance

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the chief actuary said that EI premiums could be cut to $2.05 and still provide for a rainy day fund. But, no, the Minister of Finance will stop at $2.40. He is still determined to rip off Canadian workers and businesses by about $6 billion a year.

Why will the finance minister not listen to the government's chief actuary, reduce EI premiums to $2.05 and give every Canadian family about an $800 a year tax break to put back into the economy?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, to put the record straight, we have cut EI premiums by over $4 billion in the last four years and the vast majority of that went to Canadians.

Let us take a look at what the hon. member's party has actually said. In “Fresh Start” the Reform Party recommended decreases in EI or UI premiums, but only for corporations. Its recommendation meant not one cent for Canadians. Families would not have received a penny from the Reform Party.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, if the finance minister would take off his blinders when he reads Reform material he would get it right. He did not get it right there.

The EI surplus is not his, but he just does not get that. What he wants to do is give Canadians a drop of blood in one arm and still rip off a pint of blood from the other arm.

Why will the finance minister not listen to his chief actuary? He will not listen to us, why does he not listen to the chief actuary, drop EI premiums to $2.05 and give every Canadian worker a $350 a year tax break? Why will he not do that? What is the problem?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, it is very clear why we will not listen to the Reform Party. The fact is that while the hon. member talks about blood, the Reform Party would bleed Canadian families dry; not one penny of EI cuts for Canadian families. The only people who would benefit from the Reform Party tax plan would be corporations and rich Canadians. We will simply not adopt that agenda.

Air Transportation

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport.

Yesterday, in the Air Canada-Canadian matter, former Liberal minister Marc Lalonde said that the government was mocking the House with its attitude and behaving as if everything were in the bag. The Minister of Transport defended himself saying that Marc Lalonde and his firm of lawyers were working for Air Canada.

If Marc Lalonde is considered to be working for Air Canada, is it not a far more serious matter that the person in a position to make the decisions is considered to be working for Onex? How can he, who is up to his neck already, point his finger at Marc Lalonde?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the implication in the question by the hon. member is an insult.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I ask each and every member to be very careful in their choice of words—on both sides of the House.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the terms were particularly well chosen.

In June, the minister tried to run the Onex proposal past the president of Air Canada. He said so himself in committee. On the eve of the presentation of the Onex project, the deputy minister met with this firm, and on Tuesday, the minister announced, by chance, that he would probably be changing the 10% rule to make Onex's proposal acceptable.

Is he not the one who, since June, has been pushing us inexorably in one direction—acceptance of the Onex project?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I repeat, I was informed on June 26 by the president of Canadian International Airlines that he had found an investor for the company and that it was the intention of this investor to merge the two airlines. He identified the investor as Onex.

I said a few minutes ago that, on the day before the Onex proposals were presented, my officials were informed, out of courtesy. This is common practice.

Fisheries

[Mike Scott, Reform, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, some Mi'kmaq leaders insist that the supreme court's Marshall decision applies to Newfoundland. A small group of Mi'kmaq have already gone to Newfoundland to fish crab and that has sparked confrontation and violence.

Yesterday, Premier Tobin said that unequivocally the Marshall decision does not apply to Newfoundland. Could the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans tell us if he agrees with Premier Tobin, or does he agree with the Mi'kmaq leaders?

[Lawrence O'Brien, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, we support the Marshall decision.

Yesterday the chief of the band in Conne River, Chief Misel Joe, pointed out that he was very concerned about what happened in Newfoundland and that he supported the position which we took and the position taken by the province.

I want to say to the member that this issue will unfold. The chief federal representative, Mr. Mackenzie, will deal with all issues. In the course of time members will see the resolution. In the meantime, we will enforce the law.

[Mike Scott, Reform, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Newfoundlanders deserve clarity on this issue. They need to know where the government stands on the issue of the Marshall decision as it applies to Newfoundland.

I will ask the minister again, on behalf of the people in Newfoundland who depend on the fishery for their living, does he agree that the Marshall decision applies to Newfoundland, or does he agree with Premier Tobin that it does not apply? Which is it? Could he please give us that clarity?