Debates of Feb. 18th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I say again that I have taken my responsibility seriously and I will fix the problem.

I would ask the hon. member on the issue of accountability how he defends the work of his party when it was in power and left us with a $42 billion deficit.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, two years ago auditors criticized the human resources department for doling out grants for political purposes in the transitional jobs fund.

This audit exposed a $6 million forestry project in New Brunswick that they said should not have been granted. The government estimates of job creation were highly inflated and were “more political than other programming”.

This $6 million bungle has mushroomed to a $1 billion bungle. Why does the minister insist on continuing with business as usual and on giving grants for political purposes rather—

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me clarify again for the hon. member. She made reference to an audit. It was not an audit. It was a review of the transitional jobs fund program, a very important undertaking.

The recommendations in that review did not suggest that we should change the relationship we build community by community with local members of parliament. Indeed it said they had a role to play.

I remind the hon. member that something the review did say was that job creation under the transitional jobs fund tends to be more productive and uninterrupted than it is under any of the more traditional types of HRDC programs, especially where seasonal employment is common.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister can explain it however she wants but the reality is that the review, the audit, said that things were not being done properly.

The minister and her predecessors have been warned for years that things have to change. Why has this minister done nothing to prevent the billion dollar bungle that we have now?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, what the review suggested is that we needed to provide more skills development for those employees working on this project and we did that. What it suggested is that we needed to have stronger administrative practices and we are improving them.

What I can say to the hon. member in the context of the broad issue of grants and contributions in my department is that we have identified that we have a problem. We have a plan of action that is now being implemented and the problem will be fixed.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, analyzing the minister's responses, one can see she has a fertile imagination. The computer system varies from one program to the other. The rates used are for either 1995 or 1997. The bases for calculation are regional, provincial or federal, and so on.

Since this minister claims to hold the monopoly on the truth, can she table in this House the parameters justifying the transitional jobs fund subsidies given in her riding?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said, I am going to be tabling with the acceptance of the House the terms and conditions of both the transitional jobs fund and the Canada jobs fund because I think those terms and conditions will clarify a number of things that have found their way to the floor here.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister's riding is in the Niagara region, where there has not been more than 10.7% unemployment since 1996.

Can the minister explain to this House how she managed to get transitional jobs funding for her riding, when the program directives indicated that recipients were eligible only if they were in an employment insurance economic region with an unemployment rate of 12% or higher?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again when the hon. member sees the terms and conditions of the transitional jobs fund she will see that there is within those terms and conditions the opportunity to support areas with pockets of high unemployment in economic regions. Not only was that done in the riding of Brant, but in the ridings of Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Kelowna, Kootenay—Columbia, Nanaimo—Alberni, Nanaimo—Cowichan, and Saint John. There were areas where the unemployment level was less than 12%. The program applied.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, while the minister attempts to minimize the scandal and blame others, it is clearly in her area of responsibility.

We have obtained a list circulated by Peter Donolo, the Prime Minister's former director of communications, to members of the Liberal caucus. It lists hundreds of places where Liberals can go for a photo op with recipients of government grants and contributions. Does this not just prove that this billion dollar boondoggle is more about buying political support than about creating jobs?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the document refers to activities and events connected with many different programs, not simply the transitional jobs fund. It is part of the ordinary democratic process of governments past and present, federal and provincial, for ministers and members to attend sites of activities and events to show what the government is doing to help ordinary Canadians all over the country. There is nothing wrong with that. It is part of the democratic process.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's former director of communications used this list to advise Liberal MPs where they could get an easy photo op by exploiting recipients of federal grants. This list was circulated to only a select group of MPs and what a surprise. What a surprise that only Liberal MPs and cabinet ministers got a copy. That is a real democratic process.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledge the obvious, that these grants were more about raising the profile of Liberal MPs than they were about giving grant money to Canadians and creating jobs? Is that not obvious to everybody?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, what should be obvious is that it is normal for governments to let Canadians know what they are doing to help them have jobs, to help them have better communities and to ask their supporters, ministers and MPs, to be the vehicle for getting out this information.

This can work two ways. It can help governments and it can also give people information by which governments can be criticized. But in the case of this government, because we have created almost a million and a half jobs since 1993 and we have the lowest unemployment rate in a generation, no wonder Canadians think—

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Longueuil.

Heritage Canada

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the heritage minister said that she put more money into Quebec for Canada Day because there was no Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste elsewhere in Canada, and what she wanted to do in Quebec, to repeat her terms, was to “match the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste”.

Can the Minister of Canadian Heritage explain to us what she meant by matching the Société Saint Jean-Baptiste?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the investment by the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste for Saint-Jean-Baptiste celebrations is considerable, and for Canada and Quebec the celebration of Saint-Jean-Baptiste and Canada Day is equally important.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, can the minister inform the House how much she spends in francophone communities outside Quebec to celebrate the holiday of French Canadians?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, normally the amount spent in support of the francophone community outside Quebec is, in general, $250 million annually.

Human Resources Development

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the HRD minister said that grants that happened to end up in her riding were the decision of her deputy minister. Yet in 1991 the Prime Minister said that his ministers must be held ultimately accountable for their departments and staff.

Why is the minister passing the blame to her deputy minister for the grants in her riding when according to her boss she is ultimately responsible for the actions of her department?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, quite the contrary, I am not blaming anyone here. I am just trying to ensure that appropriate decision making is undertaken. That is why I wrote to my deputy and asked her “to please accept this as notice of my delegation to you of full signing authority for all Canada jobs fund projects located in the riding of Brant”.

[Bill Gilmour, Reform, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, clearly the minister is trying to delegate blame. In terms of any management practice, many things can be delegated. Accountability cannot be delegated.

I would like to ask the minister a very direct and simple question. Who is in charge of her department, the minister or the deputy minister, and who is accountable?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, it appears to me that the questions from the other side are pointing out that the things that we need to have done have not been done in the past. I have taken this very seriously. I am accountable to ensure that the problems that have been identified are fixed and I will do that.

Parental Leave

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the leader of the opposition in the national assembly strengthened the existing consensus by giving his support to Minister Marois regarding the millions of dollars to which Quebec is entitled under the parental insurance project.

Considering that Minister Marois has asked to meet the Minister of Human Resources Development, will the minister quickly follow up on that request to settle the issue and allow the Quebec parental insurance project to become a reality in 2001?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me say again, as I said yesterday, that we had a negotiating table with the Government of Quebec in the year 1997. They are the ones who chose to break off the negotiations despite the offer that we had made to them.

For us right now, as indicated in the Speech from the Throne, we are looking specifically at the expansion of parental benefits to make them more accessible and flexible. It would seem to me that that is where I should turn my attention in the first instance.