Debates of Nov. 7th, 2001

Apec

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, recently the Secretary of State for Asia-Pacific attended the APEC conference. A number of important trade initiatives were discussed which will affect Canadian companies.

Could the minister outline to the House specific initiatives which will be of assistance to Canadian companies?

[Rey D. Pagtakhan, Liberal, Secretary of State (Asia-Pacific)]

Mr. Speaker, we market Canada's strengths through team Canada, trade missions and other programs, speaking about Canada as a high tech country and a country with first class products in goods and services and business people with integrity.

We participate in political and economic fora. We launch free trade negotiations, as with Singapore. We encourage trading countries to join the WTO so that they can participate in an internationally known, rules based system. We offer our business people support like the Export Development Corporation. Indeed, we have a lot of initiatives.

National Security

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, today the Governor of the Bank of Canada confirmed that the status quo on our perimeter policy just does not work. He said “We collectively need to find ways to give citizens and businesses a sense of confidence so that they can go about their affairs free of physical disruption, improving security to ensure that we continue to have access to the U.S. market”.

Will the Prime Minister take the advice of the governor of the bank and implement a comprehensive border management plan similar to what my colleagues and I proposed last week?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this is what we are doing at this time. We have passed laws in Canada and in fact the movement of goods from Canada to the United States is going normally; the problem is the goods coming from the United States to Canada. That means that our system is functioning quite well.

We work with the Americans to make sure that it is a subject of discussion all the time. It is in the interests of Canadians and it is in the interests of the Americans too, because 87% of our trade is with the United States, but for a big country like the United States, 25% of its trade is with Canada.

It is in their interests, too, to make sure that the free flow of goods and services--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Winnipeg--Transcona.

Religious Organizations

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister and has to do with the ongoing disagreement between the government and the churches with respect to their respective responsibilities in the residential schools question.

The Deputy Prime Minister will know that the churches are unhappy with the government's latest action and offer. I wonder whether the government would be willing to consider the suggestion by the churches that an independent mediator be appointed to settle this issue once and for all, particularly for the sake of the aboriginal people who are involved in this issue.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is no substitute for face to face negotiations between the parties. We cannot hand over our responsibilities to the people of Canada and especially to the victims to some third party. We are working to get back to the priority of helping the victims. I hope the churches will join with us in this worthy effort.

Presence in Gallery

[The Speaker]

I draw to the attention of hon. members to the presence in the gallery of Mr. Ernest Alvia Smith, better known as Smokey Smith, Canada's last surviving Victoria Cross recipient. The Victoria Cross is the highest medal for bravery bestowed in the Commonwealth by Her Majesty.

As a member of the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, Private Smith earned his Victoria Cross for action in Italy during the second world war. Mr. Smith is in Ottawa for this year's national Remembrance Day ceremony on November 11.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

Points of Order

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order concerning the records of the House. I regret having to call to the attention of the Chair a very clear difference between the electronic videotapes of yesterday's question period and the version of Hansard now published on the Internet.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, the accuracy and independence of Hansard is critical to the credibility of the Parliament of Canada. We all know that there can be minor corrections and interpretations to the printed record that is found in Hansard in order to reflect the intent of the person speaking. However, the case that I wish to point out to the Chair goes far beyond that purpose and in fact seeks to materially alter the substance of what was stated in the House.

Yesterday the hon. member for Halifax was asking a question on softwood lumber, a matter that is creating massive unemployment and economic havoc throughout Canada. The Prime Minister chose to treat this as an occasion to avoid the issue and made a joke.

In his response to the second question by the hon. member for Halifax, Hansard now states that the Prime Minister said:

Mr. Speaker, some do not have long hair and shake it a lot, as is the case with the leader of the Conservative Party, who will be up soon.

I have listened to the electronic tapes of what the Prime Minister clearly said, which was as follows:

Mr. Speaker, you know some don't have long hair and shake a lot, as is the case of the leader of the Conservative Party.

I will leave it to Canadians to judge the appropriateness of the comment. I would like to focus on what obviously took place in the aftermath as a whitewash of what appears in Hansard .

The words attributed to the Prime Minister in Hansard are inaccurate. The Prime Minister chose to make a personal, unfounded and unprovoked attack on the right hon. member for Calgary Centre. That is not reflected in Hansard . It was deliberate and intentional action unworthy of the high office held by the right hon. member for Saint-Maurice.

The Prime Minister, rather than standing and admitting that he committed a tactical error in making a personal attack, has tried to wiggle out of it by altering the printed record of the House. The Prime Minister had the floor, the cameras were on him and the record is clear; the video record is clear for everyone to see. The Prime Minister cannot fudge this. I need not remind the Speaker of the damage that results not only to personal reputations but to the collective reputation by personal attacks. This is exacerbated by denials and deliberate cover-ups.

The arrogance toward the sanctity of the House records sullies this place and heightens cynicism toward parliament. The veracity and reliability of the official records of debate are at stake. The editor of Debates should not be put in that position by the Prime Minister. It is an abuse of officials by either the Prime Minister or those who act on his behalf.

The House was collectively embarrassed yesterday and the Prime Minister or his office compounded this error by instructing Hansard to alter his own words. When the Prime Minister drops a clanger he should be man enough to admit it, not try to fudge Hansard . Once again, public servants should not be asked to cover up what were lapses of judgment on the part of the Prime Minister.

Mr. Speaker, I ask you to review both the written record and the electronic tapes that are available to determine if the accuracy reflected in the words of the Prime Minister appears in Hansard . In the meantime I hope the Prime Minister would put an end to this matter by simply standing up in the House himself and giving an apology. He should not send a delegation to offer his apology, as he has done in the past. The Prime Minister owes an apology to a former prime minister, to the House of Commons, to the editor of Hansard and to the Canadian people.

I thank the hon. Speaker for his indulgence in consideration of this matter.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, in fact there are really two points that were raised. I think the House is a little unclear as to what the hon. member is seeking.

He first of all raises the issue of the official record not being reflective of what was said. Then he goes on to describe that in his view the comments of the Prime Minister, which I think are taken out of context somewhat, were inappropriate.

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

It was inappropriate.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I am not debating that. If someone wants to say that the comments were inappropriate, I suppose that could have been invoked at the appropriate time but that is not the issue before the House. It is whether the official record is accurate or not.

Members of parliament are issued what is known as the blues, the informal Hansard , in which they verify the accuracy of what is there. If that has not been reflected accurately then we could certainly correct that.

I have just been handed a note from officials of the Prime Minister's Office in which I am informed that in fact no corrections of the blues were made yesterday.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have something to add which should be helpful to you when you deal with this issue. I faced this earlier in the week when I was speaking on a private member's bill to do with divorce.

I mentioned something about a family who would have been married earlier when I should have said divorced earlier. The electronic record clearly says I used the word married instead of divorced, but I did not intend to say that and it makes no sense. I was able to change the word by sending it to Hansard so at least those who would read it in the future could make sense of my intent.

Here is where I want to be helpful. I feel somewhat guilty about altering a record like that and yet it did not express what I intended to express. I would like to suggest that the procedures be changed so that an editorial change could be put into Hansard in square brackets, clearly indicating that this is what the member intended to say but in fact did not, as a way of explanation.

In that way the record would be accurate and we would be able to communicate to future generations what we actually said.

[The Speaker]

I am sure all hon. members appreciate the contribution of the hon. member for Elk Island on this point, but I might suggest to him that he take that suggestion up with the procedure and House affairs committee. We will get a recommendation from there, and if it is acceptable away we go.

I think the Bloc Quebecois whip would also like to take part in this discussion.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to check something. We work with the French version, and yesterday's discussion, which was in English, appears to possibly contain a problem in the translation.

I would ask you to take this into consideration too, not to judge the misplaced remarks of the Prime Minister, that is a whole other issue, which we will all agree on, but the form and what occurred in the case of potential corrections to Hansard .

I also ask you to look at the differences in the French and English versions.

[The Speaker]

I appreciate the contribution by the hon. whip of the Bloc Quebecois. What is important here, as the government House leader pointed out, is what appeared in Hansard .

The member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough has brought two arguments together under the same argument in an effort to perhaps bolster his argument on one, but I am not sure.

However I will examine the record very carefully. I will come back to the House if necessary with a ruling on this matter. I will certainly look at the blues, at any changes made to them, and I will look at the video transcript of the proceedings, which of course we have heard repeated by the hon. member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough, and will get back to the House in due course. I thank hon. members for their contributions on this point.

Government Response to Petitions

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8) I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to four petitions.

Canadian Commercial Corporation Act

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-41, an act to amend the Canadian Commercial Corporation Act.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Interparliamentary Delegations

[Aileen Carroll, Liberal, Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to present, pursuant to Standing Order 34, in both official languages, the report of the Canadian delegation of the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association to the fourth part of the session of the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe, held in Strasbourg, France, from September 24 to 28, 2001.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the report of the visit by the Canada-Taiwan Parliamentary Friendship Group between August 1 and 8, 2001.

Committees of the House

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the 38th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, on the referendum regulations.

[David Pratt, Liberal, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the third report of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs on the state of readiness of the Canadian forces response to the terrorist threat. Notwithstanding Standing Order 109, the committee requests a government response in 90 days.

This interim report contains 19 recommendations related to the budget, personnel levels of the Canadian forces, equipment requirements, the need for review of foreign and defence policies, our emergency preparedness agencies, as well as the role of the reserves and special forces.

Louis Riel Act

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

seconded by the hon. member for Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis, moved for leave to introduce Bill C-411, an act respecting Louis Riel.

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis and a number of other members from all parties in the House who participated in the development of the bill. I recommend it to the House for early passage.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Carriage by Air Act

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, for the Minister of Transport]

moved that Bill S-33, an act to amend the Carriage by Air Act, be read the first time.

(Motion agreed to and bill read the first time)