Debates of April 23rd, 2002

Supply

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in today's important debate on measures to protect children from sexual exploitation. I wish to confirm to the hon. members of the House the Government of Canada's very firm commitment to strengthen the protection afforded to children under criminal law against sexual exploitation and, in fact, against any form of victimization.

While I welcome debate on this very important issue, I find the opposition motion somewhat worrisome. This motion is to adopt immediate legislative provisions that would raise the age of consent to at least 16 years and included measures that would prohibit behaviour related to child pornography.

This motion contains a number of flaws. Legislation with such serious consequences must not be passed in haste. The issue of age of consent affects not only the criminal code, but also a number of provincial statutes. We would not be wise to adopt such an amendment hastily. It is my belief that the motion as it stands would not allow for a careful and thorough analysis.

The Department of Justice is in the process of undertaking public consultations and a comprehensive review of the need for further criminal law reforms to improve the protection of children. This consultation and review is based on four main areas.

First, should we amend the existing offences involving children, or create new ones? Are reforms necessary to better respond to physical and emotional abuse perpetrated against children, child neglect and child homicide, as well as sexual exploitation of children?

Second, should we amend the sentencing principles of the criminal code to guarantee that every sentence truly reflects the gravity of every offence committed against a child?

Third, should there be additional measures to better meet the specific needs and ability of victims who are children and who are witnesses in the criminal justice process?

And finally, fourth—and this is of paramount importance when it comes to today's debate—should the general minimum age of consent to sexual activity be maintained or raised?

In addition to the public consultation component of this project, the department consulted with provincial and territorial criminal justice officials, as well as with individuals involved in child protection, other experts, stakeholders and members of the public. These consultations were concluded last summer.

Federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for justice recently considered a summary of the results of these consultations at the February meeting. I am pleased to note that all ministers indicated their continuing shared commitment to work together to follow up on these consultations and review. We have directed federal, provincial and territorial senior officials to develop follow up options for our consideration in the coming months.

As I mentioned, one of the issues examined in this consultation is the general minimum age of consent to sexual activity. One of the reasons for the continued interest in the age of consent is the desire to better protect young people against those who seek to exploit them sexually and take advantage of their vulnerability.

However, it is important to mention that the protection now available under criminal law against the sexual exploitation of children is perhaps underestimated. I would therefore like to take this opportunity to provide some information about how the criminal law currently deals with the minimum age of consent to sexual activity.

First, it seems that some people mistakenly believe that the criminal law was amended in 1987 in order to lower the age of consent from 16 to 14. It is true that, at the time, the criminal code provisions on sexual violence against children were overhauled, strengthening and amending the protection of children against sexual violence, but these reform measures did not include lowering the age of consent.

The general minimum age of consent for individual sexual activity has been 14 years of age since 1890 when it was raised from 12 years of age. However, where the sexual activity is not individual, such as child prostitution or child pornography, or where it breaches a relationship of trust or dependence the age of consent is18.

I wish to reassure members of this House. Children are well protected against sexual violence by people in positions of trust, who could force them into the sex trade, and by people who produce or distribute child pornography.

Our existing criminal code is designed to eliminate child pornography, and our ability to prosecute such activities will be increased once Bill C-15A has received royal assent.

That having been said, the government recognizes that we must constantly re-evaluate existing measures for the protection of children against sexual exploitation.

The current opposition motion asks for “measures to prohibit the creation or use of” child pornography. These measures already exist. Making, printing, publishing, importing, distributing, selling or processing child pornography in Canada are offences. This seems fairly comprehensive but the government was not satisfied and in Bill C-15A it seeks to further strengthen our child pornography laws by creating four new offences: transmitting, making available, exporting and accessing.

These amendments are part of Canada's strategy to protect the children of the 21st century. The new offences have in part been introduced to put an end to the phenomenon involving the Internet. In addition to all the government programs aimed at promoting use of the net, we have also examined the Canadian legislation in order to ensure it is current and pertinent to this wired environment.

One of the key questions examined was child protection. To that end Canada has taken part both here and elsewhere in the negotiation of treaties and promotional programs with a view to raising children's awareness of the cyberworld and to protect them from its hazards.

Canada is involved in a transnational initiative aimed at countering the sexual exploitation of children. In the Council of Europe, Canada has taken part in negotiations for the convention on cybercrime, which includes provisions on child pornography along very much the same lines as our Canadian legislation.

Here in Canada, the main focus of such government initiatives as the strategy for safe, prudent and responsible use of the Internet, launched by the industry minister, the justice minister and the secretary of state responsible for multiculturalism this past February, is the protection of children.

In relation to the use of child pornography mentioned in the motion, the Supreme Court of Canada in the Sharpe decision found that the possession offence as it related to child pornography was constitutional, and thus possession of child pornography in Canada would remain a crime. However, in that decision, the court found it necessary to carve out two limited exceptions so that the offence would not be overly broad. The court was concerned about infringing on our constitutional right to freedom of expression and drew the line at prohibiting a person's own thoughts.

In this regard the court outlined when possession of child pornography was permissible. These limited exceptions are: any written material or visual representations created by the accused alone and held by the accused alone for his or her own personal use; and, any visual recording, created by or depicting the accused, provided it does not depict illegal sexual activity and is held by the accused exclusively for private use.

In addition to the exceptions set out in Sharpe, the criminal code contains other means of defence against child pornography offences, particularly when there is artistic merit or educational, scientific or medical value.

Recently there was a long debate in the House of Commons on the artistic merit defence. This defence was included in the legislative amendments which led to the creation of the child pornography provisions in 1993. Parliament in its wisdom saw fit to include defences applicable to child pornography related offences in order to ensure constitutionality.

I would like to take this opportunity to underscore the importance of the parliamentary process and the input of parliamentarians, and to state that the vigorous debate on this issue has made it apparent that many parliamentarians are concerned about how courts are interpreting artistic merit in the context of child pornography.

I understand the concerns relating to the artistic merit defence and as a father I can also relate to the motivation behind the opposition motion. As I stated before, such debates should be properly informed by the input of parliamentarians. With that in mind, I believe that this issue should be properly reviewed by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

The government is committed to the protection of children and on issues such as this, which all Canadians can relate to, we should avail ourselves of as many parliamentary tools as are available.

As far as the aspect of the motion addressing retention or changes to the current provisions on the legal general age of consent to sexual activity are concerned, I would like to point out just how numerous and complex the questions are, and that they clearly require a fine balance between the necessity of protecting young people from exploitation and the need to respect their developing independence.

Some call for the present age of consent to be maintained. They have a number of reasons for this. For example, that the motion calls for the age of consent to be raised in order to better protect children from sexual exploitation, yet the criminal code already bans the sexual exploitation of children. This objective could be achieved by applying the present criminal provisions more strictly as far as perpetrators are concerned, rather than restricting the rights and freedoms of young people.

The present age of consent provisions respect young people's freedom of choice, while providing sufficient protection against sexual exploitation by adults.

Youth engage in sexual activity irrespective of the criminal law. This activity is better addressed through parental guidance. Increasing the age of consent could result in criminalizing the conduct of these youth.

This could have a disproportionate impact on communities where it is considered acceptable for youth to engage in sexual activity at a younger age than in other communities. An increase in the general age of consent could lead to either a denial of or diminished access to sexual health care and services, including access to contraceptives for youth below the age of consent, notwithstanding that they are engaging in sexual activity.

Others support an increase in the age of consent to either 16 or 18 years of age for a variety of reasons, including the belief that persons from other jurisdictions that have a higher age of consent, such as many American states, may come to Canada to prey on 14 and 15 year olds because of the lower age of consent in Canada.

Raising the age to 16 would make Canada's laws more consistent with that of other countries, such as the U.K. and many American states. Fourteen and fifteen year olds lack the mental and emotional maturity to cope with the psychological effects of engaging in sexual activity and, in particular, engaging in sexual activity with older persons. Raising the age to 18 would make the age of consent consistent with child sexual exploitation offences as well as with other laws governing youth, such as those relating to alcohol and tobacco and age of majority.

Thus it is clear that the matter of maintaining or raising the minimum age of consent is not as simple as it may seem. A legislative reform that goes beyond merely forbidding the behaviour of a potential sexual predator may have a number of potential repercussions. These could, for example, include the age of consent to marriage and access to the health system for services relating to the reproductive system and sexuality.

For this reason, the federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for justice have called upon their senior departmental staff with expertise in criminal law to draft various options for examination.

This issue can simply be described as whether the existing age of consent to sexual activity should be maintained or increased. I hope that hon. members can appreciate that the issue and our potential response to it is not so simple. There is a divergence of opinion on this matter. All issues must be fully and carefully explored to ensure that children are provided with adequate and appropriate protection.

The issues raised in today's motion are complex and will best be dealt with by adopting a thoughtful, consultative and co-operative approach. It is in this fashion that we will best serve Canadians.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I notice there are a number of members who want to question the hon. Minister of Justice. I will try to facilitate that to the extent that members have short questions and the minister can give somewhat short responses. We will get as many on the record as possible.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, we know and understand it is a complex issue. That is why we did not attempt to write the law. We have confidence that the minister and his department would be able to handle complex issues. That is not an issue. The provincial justice ministers have passed a resolution, as I understand it, in favour of raising the minimum age of consent to 16. Does he expect a problem with them?

Another major issue is the court's interpretation and the application of the term artistic merit. The code says a judge must or shall acquit on the basis of any artistic merit. Perhaps if judges had some leeway or if the code said they may do this instead of they shall or they must, then perhaps they could use better judgment.

I would like the minister to comment on the possibility of changes in that area and on the possibility of a problem with the provincial ministers.

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the question raised by the hon. member essentially touches two elements of this debate. The first is about the age of consent. In my main speech I pointed out the different views that people have on the topic as well as the different reasons why some people would like to raise the age of consent and why other people would like it to remain as it is.

The Canadian government and some provinces brought the topic to the federal, provincial and territorial meeting. I said in my main speech that some officials are looking into it at this point in time and will report back to see if we can reach a consensus around that question.

As the member said, it is a complex issue. We want to deal with the matter quickly but we want to ensure that it will respect our society in terms of where we are compared to other nations. Other nations have ages of consent of 15 and 16. We must have an overview of the entire situation. That is why we are recommending on this side that we should proceed with a good consultation period.

The second point, which is important as well, is the question of defence based on artistic merit. The government is actively looking into the existing section of the criminal code as well as the defences contained in those sections. I firmly believe that if we want to ensure we provide Canadians with an effective tool we should ensure that the section of the criminal code will be declared valid. We must respect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

My point is quite simple. If we were to start infringing upon some freedoms that exist within the charter we would have to justify it based on section 1 of the charter. We have the room to manoeuvre to ensure that we continue to improve the existing tools within the criminal code and see if we could add to them.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to address only one question to the hon. minister with regard to defence of artistic merit. Would he agree that the protection of a child is of greater significance than declaring certain sado-masochistic information as having artistic merit? We know that pornographic material hurts and harms children. Would he consider artistic merit to be more important than protecting children?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the question is clear. I will refer the hon. member to what I said in my previous answer.

Freedoms exist in the Canadian charter of rights but we must ensure that we put some flexibility into the charter in order to address some specific questions. Everyone in the House is against child pornography. The government and all members will continue to fight against it. What I find interesting is that we are always talking about a balanced approach.

As I said, if we want to touch on the question of freedom it is provided for within section 2 of the charter. Section 1 is helpful because we have to justify that what we are doing is okay within a free and democratic society. I believe that section 1 gives us the appropriate measures to allow us to make sure that we will be able to tighten up the existing provisions of the criminal code. We will have a look at it ensuring that we will be able to develop additional tools in order to keep protecting children in Canada.

[Reed Elley, Canadian Alliance, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the hon. member a question after a short observation.

He seemed to infer in his speech that it is quite possible there would be objections to raising the age of consent because there may be some segments of our society where the cultural norm is to allow children to participate in sexual activity at a much younger age than 14.

First, I would be interested in knowing if he has any information about the segments of our society that allow that to take place. I personally do not know of anyone who would be happy for that to take place. Second, if indeed that was a standard that we were using in terms of the age of consent, is he really inferring that we could have some kind of patchwork quilt of law-making across the country where we would allow one segment of society to have its own rules and another segment of society to have other rules? Do we not make laws so that they apply equally across the country?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the protection of our children is our top priority. As a government we will do whatever it takes to protect children.

In answer to the question raised by the hon. member I would like to refer to my main speech. There are different opinions and different points of view with regard to the way we should address the question of the age of consent.

I did not take any position. I raised the point in order to demonstrate that it is a complex issue. It is not as simple as the Canadian Alliance motion would like it to be. We are dealing with the criminal code that applies across the country.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice said we will perhaps examine ways in which we can strengthen the protection of children against pornography. Is he prepared to delete from the current criminal code defence of artistic merit?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, the top priority is the protection of our children. We as a government want to ensure that we have effective tools in order to protect them.

When one looks at the charter, there are freedoms. There is also section 1. Section 1 is there to ensure that we will be able to have a look at the existing sections to see if we can tighten up those sections.

[Carole-Marie Allard, Liberal, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first let me commend the member for his commitment and dedication to an issue as important as protecting children, particularly against sexual abuse perpetrated by adults.

Children represent our future, the future of our country. It falls to us to do everything in our power to protect them and help them grow in an environment free of danger. We all know, we have all seen studies that are unanimous in their findings: abuse, particularly sexual abuse, leaves deep scars. The consequences of such abuse last a lifetime and can be seen in all kinds of insidious problems: an inability to trust, antisocial behaviour, depression and suicide. These are only a few of the consequences of sexual abuse.

Our government has not been idle on this issue. First, Bill C-15A contains a new offence, the purpose of which is to protect our children from pedophiles who use the Internet to lure them into dangerous situations.

I would like to mention that I will be sharing my time with the member for York West.

Nor can I forget to mention the public consultations organized by the Department of Justice Canada, under the theme of “Children as Victims in the Criminal Justice System”. The public document examined criminal law reforms to improve the protection of children. Four main themes were examined during these consultations, including the idea of raising the age of consent.

It was found that the issue of age of consent plays an important role in measures to improve the protection of our children. However, make no mistake about it, this issue is too complex to make any quick decisions.

The member's proposal to raise the age of consent is in response to concerns of Canadians. However, we must ensure that our response takes into consideration the complexity of the issue.

The minimum age of consent is being reviewed as part of the public consultation on child victims and the criminal justice system. As a result of this analysis, we will have a clearer picture of all the relevant issues. One of these issues has to do with the age decided upon and its impact on other ages of consent set out the criminal code. Although the criminal code sets the age of consent at 14 for most sexual activities, it sets it at 18 for certain forms of sexual exploitation. Any decision as to the age of consent must avoid the inadvertent lowering of the age of consent for sexual exploitation offences. The result would be incomplete and inadequate protection of children.

We must also ensure that the age decided upon will not have the effect of criminalizing consensual relations between young people in the same age group. Public opinion on the age of consent is varied. Some people are in favour of raising the age of consent to 16, even 18; others want to see it left at 14. Everyone, however, agrees on the need to strike a balance between, on the one hand, the desire to protect children against sexual predators and, on the other, the desire to avoid criminalizing consensual sexual activity between young people. We must also avoid encouraging abusive, non-consensual relations between young people.

Finally, we must ensure that the age of consent is consistent with the age of consent to marriage. With the exception of Ontario and Quebec, the provinces and territories will, in exceptional cases, authorize the marriage of individuals under 16. We must avoid creating a situation where an individual under the age of 16 is allowed to marry but not to consent to sexual relations.

Finally, as we have pointed out, the issue is a complex one with federal, provincial and territorial implications, which cannot be sorted out in one day. It is an important topic, one which concerns people and which requires reflection and a collaborative effort with the provinces and the territories.

There is no doubt that we must ensure that our children are safe from exploitation and sexual abuse by adults, but we must achieve this through a well thought out consultative approach, so that the result serves the interests of Canadians and, above all, our children to the greatest extent possible.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak on today's opposition motion regarding protection of children from sexual predators, an issue that is extremely important to all of us in the House. The implication of the motion is that the government is doing nothing while our children remain endangered. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I would like to note the government's efforts to date on this matter. The solicitor general rose in the House in March 2001 and stated emphatically that he supported a motion by the member for Langley--Abbotsford for a registry of sex offenders, as did all members present. We supported the motion because, as the solicitor general said then, this nation already possessed one of the most technologically advanced criminal history registries in the world in the Canadian Police Information Centre referred to as CPIC.

Further, he told the House that his department would begin evaluating potential improvements to CPIC in the specific area of sex offences, citing the criticism that CPIC was not address searchable by police officers. In a very short period of time he fulfilled that commitment when he announced in September 2001 that a new database within the CPIC system was to be created and it was to be known as the sex offender category. Further, he announced that this database would be address searchable and more, and it would be up and running within a year, funded completely by the federal government.

That is not all that the government has done in recent years to combat the dangers of sexual predators. In 1997 we proclaimed Bill C-55, which strengthened the dangerous offender rules in part XXIV of the criminal code and also created a new sentencing provision called the long term offender. As a result of these changes, prosecutors in almost every province are aggressively pursuing dangerous offender and long term offender options. In fact, since 1997 the number of successful dangerous offender applications has doubled every year.

The 1997 legislative package also created a new category called the long term offender, targeting individuals who are clearly a threat but would not meet the threshold as a dangerous offender. This new designation recognized that released sex offenders who receive supervision and treatment in the community experience dramatically lower reoffending rates than offenders who enter the community at the end of a sentence without conditions for supervision or treatment. In addition to their normal custodial term, long term offenders can be ordered to comply with a further 10 years of community supervision and conditions. This innovative measure has already resulted in over 100 long term offender orders.

In addition, another provision was created in section 810 of the criminal code. So-called community protection orders can be issued by a court and reviewed every 12 months to place conditions on a sex offender even when no sentence is being served. Today these orders are frequently used by police when they have concerns about high risk sex offenders.

None of these initiatives happened overnight. While I agree with my colleagues that this is a pressing problem, cobbling together a mandatory sex offender registry without looking at all the issues, all the details and all the facts will not result in good legislation. The solicitor general has taken a different approach. He has asked his officials to work with all the provinces and territories to fully explore the issue, to determine what is and what is not feasible in the Canadian context, to determine what works and what does not, and to find out where some jurisdictions have succeeded and where others have failed. I fully support this approach. The Minister of Justice completely supports this approach as well, and this side of the House, without reservation, also supports this approach.

Finally, it is obvious to me that all of the provinces support it. Why else would they be participating fully in the federal-provincial-territorial working group on high risk offenders, which is currently seized with this matter? It is clearly of major importance to all of us. Indeed, our provincial and territorial partners spoke with one voice in August 2001 when their premiers unanimously voted to call for a national sex offender registry. They want it, and now we are all working together to design a system that everyone can support.

That collaboration to create a truly national system based on a national consensus is well underway. An effective system can exist only if all jurisdictions work together on agreed upon objectives. That is why we are working closely with all the provincial and territorial ministers to do that. Since March 13, 2001, the solicitor general and Minister of Justice have discussed the issue of sex offender registries with provincial and territorial colleagues on two occasions. As well, a team of senior federal, provincial and territorial officials continues to work to establish the following: a common understanding of the necessary components of a sex offender registry; the principles and objectives of such a system; the respective jurisdictional roles and responsibilities; and the potential charter and privacy risks.

The government has kept its promise to work with provincial partners to examine enhancements to CPIC. Last September in White Point, Nova Scotia, the solicitor general announced funding to develop the national sex offender database in the Canadian Police Information Centre to improve its capacity to keep track of sex offenders. These changes were a direct result of requests made by our provincial and territorial colleagues. These enhancements will give every police force in Canada instant, around the clock access to information about sex offenders who are registered in the sex offender category. The enhancements will be operational by November 2002 at an estimated cost of $2 million in capital costs and $400,000 on an annual basis.

The special category or database will be able to link to other criminal history and police information already contained in CPIC by doing a name search. Provinces will be able to enter that information in the sex offender category so that the information is shared with all police forces across the country, something that is long overdue. The new category would allow police to conduct a sophisticated search according to a current address and the offence of a sex offender or a combination of the two. I am confident that these changes will make a significant contribution to our efforts in seeking a national approach.

Last September, federal, provincial and territorial ministers also asked senior officials to give advice on issues relating to a national approach to a sex offender registration. The approach prepared by the working group on high risk offenders was submitted to ministers last February. While it discusses a number of issues regarding a registry system that jurisdictions agree with, further work is needed to develop answers on a number of fundamental changes. These include criteria to identify registerable offenders and to identify cost implications and potential charter concerns on the elements of a sex offender registry that jurisdictions wish to consider.

At the Moncton meeting last February, federal ministers agreed that they will attempt to bring forward legislation to support a national registration process in the same timeframe as completion of enhancements to CPIC, including the mandatory registration of specified offenders. The solicitor general asked that all jurisdictions work closely together to reach a consensus as soon as possible. I understand that the federal, provincial and territorial deputy ministers will again discuss this in June at their meeting. It is essential for senior officials to continue this important work and develop a common model before deciding how best to proceed. A detailed model will help us consider and hopefully come to an agreement on important matters.

On the issue of cost, we know little about the costs about this point and most of the policy work has been done without reference to resources. It would not be acceptable to arbitrarily impose on jurisdictions, particularly smaller jurisdictions, a system they do not support or cannot afford. We must carefully address this and other fundamental issues in the consideration of a national system while recognizing that not all jurisdictions have the same needs.

In closing, let me say again that the government has done and will do its utmost to protect Canadians. We have made exceptional progress since last March and we will continue to work with our partners on a regular basis. We need effective solutions that we know will work for all jurisdictions.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I found it rather interesting to hear the hon. member cataloguing and calendaring the number of things that the Liberal government has done in terms of the registry for sexual offenders. I really wonder what that has to do with the motion currently before the House.

Aside from that, I would like to ask her specifically about the defence of artistic merit that is provided for in the Criminal Code of Canada. In her role as a representative of York West, which is in the vicinity of Toronto, and recognizing that the chief of police of that city is extremely concerned about the pornographic things that are happening, particularly the abuse of children, would she, in her role as representative of that part of Ontario and of Canada, recognize that artistic merit is a defence of someone having child pornography in written form?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, when we talk about pornography and how it involves our children, these are issues that we will be looking at seriously with every intent to use whatever jurisdiction that we have and whatever we can do within the law to see that our children are all protected. Some people may call this activity artistic but others would differ. The ultimate issue is protecting our children and ensuring that we have done everything we possibly can as legislators to do that.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the provisions in the charter of rights and freedoms which allow for artistic expression and a lot of self-expression and is there for the protection of Canadians, would the hon. member's interpretation of the charter say that harming children is less important than providing for the artistic expression of someone who creates this kind of pornographic material?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe some of the questions that have been raised in the House. I refuse to accept that any of us think that protecting our children is not of major importance to every person who is elected to the House, regardless of party.

We are here to bring in legislation that is good for all Canadians. I clearly think that what the minister is trying to do is to ensure that we have legislation that will protect all the children in the country.

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to the Canadian Alliance supply day motion. I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Kelowna.

Addressing the sexual age of consent in Canada is the supply day motion, and it is long overdue. I have found that when people find out the age of consent in Canada is only 14 years of age most are shocked and outraged. Many were of the belief that the age was at least 16. They often ask why the age is so low and why someone is not doing something to change it. I see the disgust on the faces of parents and grandparents.

It is truly shocking that we live in a country where the government does not see fit to offer legitimate protection to our children.

The motion before us today deals with protecting our children from sexual predators. As the law is currently written, an adult has the legal right to have sexual relations with children as young as 14. At 14 years old these individuals are children.

I have met with members of the Canadian Police Association and have heard their concerns over this issue in the resolutions passed at the association's annual general meeting last fall. One of the topics addressed was the sexual age of consent in Canada. The resolution recommended that parliament “raise the age of consent for children to have sexual relations with older persons to at least age 16”.

Police officers in Canada are on the front lines and see daily what the current law is doing to our children. Our police community see children that are manipulated into lifestyles and situations that they should not even know exist. Parents call asking for help to rescue their children but nothing can be done. Our children are offered no protection. An adult can lure children into a life of prostitution or pornography and there is nothing that parents, support agencies or law enforcement officers can do to help the child.

The government's inaction on the issue of sexual age of consent allows these children to be victimized. The government introduced Bill C-15A to help combat the luring of children over the Internet. While this is a step in the right direction, it offers protection only to those children age 13 years and younger. More needs to be done.

As a grandmother of five granddaughters, it both frightens and disgusts me that the government would choose to endanger the lives of our children. By the inaction and indifference shown by the government, it is apparent that the lives and safety of children are not priorities.

We have debated at length on the protection of species at risk. It would please me to see the government offering at least that much concern to the safety of our nation's children. Are the lives of Canadian children not more important and of more value than the northern cricket frog or the short-horned pygmy lizard? We are offering absolute protection to snails and barn owls accompanied by severe penalties and punishments to offenders, whether their actions were intentional, reckless or not, but child pornographers roam free.

The recent Sharpe case is a glaring example of what awaits our children. Artistic licence is provided as a legitimate defence. How do we explain that to the parents of the children involved?

While the courts are offering little in the way of punishment for such actions, the very least we can do is raise the sexual age of consent as protection for our children. By raising the age we could eliminate a portion of our population that may fall prey to sexual predators and offenders.

Children of the age of 14 are not allowed to consume alcohol, drive a car or vote in an election and yet they are allowed by law to engage in sexual activity with adults. Children of 14 are not emotionally mature enough to make these decisions and are therefore open to the suggestions and manipulations of adults.

We as adults, parents, protectors and legislators have the absolute responsibility to do all that we can to offer protection to our children. It baffles me that the government chooses to ignore the plight of these children.

We are not here to argue morality. We are here to fight for the safety and security of our children.

The former minister of justice told the committee in October of 2001:

I think we will see a consensus is emerging that with certain safeguards we should probably be moving on the age of consent from 14 to 16.

I believe we have more than an emerging consensus on this issue. I believe we should stop talking about making changes. It is the time to act, to implement legislation that will protect our children.

The government's own Department of Justice, in a consultation paper, viewed the current age as being too low to offer adequate protection from adults seeking to exploit these children. It is time that the government pays attention to the wishes of Canadians and to its own justice department.

My oldest granddaughter is 12 years old. She will be turning 13 this summer. It is alarming that she has only one year left of protection from sexual predators under Canadian law. She is a bright and outgoing girl with an amazing future ahead of her but in only one year it will be open season on her and her friends and classmates. Once these children reach the age of 14, the government steps back to let them fend for themselves.

Parents, grandparents, family members and friends will have no legal recourse to try to protect their children. Police fight a losing battle against child pornography and child prostitution as long as the current age of consent remains where it is. We hear the horror stories of young girls and boys working the streets and wonder if something cannot be done to help them. Sadly the answer is often no.

Leading lawmakers and enforcers in Canada wish to see the legal sexual age of consent raised to a minimum of 16. The groups all understand the necessity and urgency for changing the age. The provincial attorneys general and the Canadian Police Association both understand the need. The minister's own department understands the need. The official opposition understands the need. Parents across the country understand the need.

Recent round table discussions held in Ottawa dealt with battling child pornography in Canada. One of the recommendations from that meeting came to the same conclusion, that the sexual age of consent be raised from 14 to 16.

I urge the government to take a serious look at this issue. This is an issue that affects thousands of children every year in our country. Our children rely on us for protection. The government is failing them. The sexual age of consent must be raised to a minimum of 16 years of age. The government must act. Not to do so would be negligent.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the debate today and it is important for us to consider some of the cause and effect issues that the member raised.

I noted that in her speech she indicated that 14 year olds are probably of an age where they are not very aware and are vulnerable to being exploited simply because of their age and that therefore we should raise the age of consent to 16 because that would raise it to an age where maybe kids would be mature enough to be able to understand the consequences of their decisions and actions.

That is an interesting argument but I wonder if the member might explain why her party also wanted to reduce the age for young offender offences from 12 to 10 so that we could prosecute even younger people under the Young Offenders Act. It would appear that it is the same question. Are 12 year olds responsible for their actions? Yes. The member would suggest that 10 year olds are responsible and know what they are doing. Why is it that she wants to have it one way for young offenders and suggests another way with regard to child pornography and consent?

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, we spoke about the Young Offenders Act because we wanted to stop them from turning their lives into lives of crime. We wanted to nip it in the bud and we wanted to start it early.

I look at sexual consent in another way. You spoke to your police officers. They told you that they could not take children away or charge them if they were over the age of 14 and living with a pimp.

We want to protect children at both ends of the age scale.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Before I take another question, I want to remind members to please direct their comments through the Chair.

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as I understand the member's explanation, the request is that the government take a small step to protect children from adult sexual predators by raising the age of consent from its present dangerous level of 14 years old.

I am sure the Liberal members who have presented questions to the opposition members must know the vast majority of their constituents would be in support of this. When I travel through my constituency, whether I talk to people in Princeton, Hope, Merritt or Westbank on this issue, I have yet to run into a constituent who is opposed to this.

The basic statement which reflects the motion is that any government that fails to protect the children of the land from the predators of the land should actually forfeit its right to govern the land. On that basic statement and on the premise of this request today, has the member run into a wall of opposition from the public, from citizens, on this issue? Could she give us some kind of indication if there has been widespread opposition? Whether we agree with technicalities or not this is basic democracy. Has the member run into any groundswell of opposition to this?

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, everywhere I go throughout my riding of Saskatoon--Rosetown--Biggar people are begging for this. People are asking for it.

Community associations in my part of Saskatoon are walking the streets trying to help the young people in the evening. They are begging the government to come forward and do something to help the young people.

There are e-mails and letters on file in the office. People want the government to do something to help our police officers. We need support for our police officers. This is one way of assisting them to help and protect our children. One young life lost is one too many.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Liberals and members of other parties are sitting here in the House today and it is almost as if there is supposed to be some sort of confrontation between the Liberal side of the House and the official opposition with regard to this issue. It seems to me there is not a person in Canada who deliberately wants to hurt people, especially children. Maybe there is, I do not know, but it is not the majority by any stretch of the imagination. Hon. members on the government side would do very well to recognize that they could work with the opposition on things that are really meaningful.

I want to speak to the part of the motion that deals with measures to prohibit the creation or use of sexually explicit materials exploiting children, or materials that appear to depict or describe children engaged in sexual activity. My remarks will be restricted to that aspect and I will not deal with the part concerning age of consent.

Why is this issue so important today? It has become important because of the recent decision in the John Robin Sharpe case. The judge decided that the man was not guilty of doing something illegal in terms of having pornographic material because it had artistic merit. The written material described sadomasochistic violence with boys.

The Oxford dictionary describes sadism as sexual perversion characterized by the enjoyment of inflicting pain or suffering on others and masochism as deriving sexual gratification from one's own pain or humiliation.

Does such material have artistic merit? The law is quite clear. Hon. members have stated clearly that there is a law against having pornographic material in Canada and indeed there is. According to our legislation child pornography can mean any written material or visual representation that advocates or counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of 18 years. That would be considered an offence under the code. One of the defences set out is:

Where the accused is charged with an offence under subsection (2), (3) or (4), the court shall find the accused not guilty if the representation or written material that is alleged to constitute child pornography has artistic merit or an educational, scientific or medical purpose.

It was under that particular provision that Mr. Sharpe was declared not guilty.

The case brings to our attention the need to protect children from evils associated with the possession of child pornography. No one denies that child pornography involves the exploitation of children. Possession of child pornography contributes to the market for child pornography, a market which in turn drives production involving the exploitation of children. Possession of child pornography may facilitate the seduction and grooming of victims and may break down inhibitions or incite potential offences. These are not my words, but rather the words of a supreme court justice.

Two issues stand in stark contrast to one another. On the one hand stands the right of freedom of expression as the Minister of Justice mentioned. That is a right which is fundamental to the liberty of each Canadian. On the other hand stands the conviction that the possession of child pornography must be forbidden to prevent harming children.

It is pretty clear what the issues are. What is pornography? I will not go through all the details about it, but I will deal with one particular aspect of this issue.

Written material can constitute child pornography in only the last of the ways I am going to mention. What is the way that is being talked about? It is by advocating or counselling sexual activity with a person under the age of 18 years. That would be an offence under the criminal code.

An adult or any other person who brings a child into this kind of knowledge and abuses and exposes the child to issues that are clearly defined in the legislation needs to be recognized in terms of what is fundamental to this nation and certainly fundamental to my beliefs.

I would like to read into the record the words of Jesus in Luke, chapter 17, verse 1:

Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves”.

That is very interesting. In our society today where many of the laws are based on Judeo-Christian values, to recognize that the authority behind that states clearly that people who mislead and bring about the offensive behaviour of certain people who are not responsible in their own right but who are adults and know exactly what they are doing, is a very serious offence.

The exposure to child pornography may reduce a pedophile's defences and inhibitions against sexual abuse of children. That is why we object. Banalizing the awful and numbing constant exposure to child pornography may make the abnormal seem normal and the immoral seem acceptable.

The evidence is clear and uncontradicted. Sexually explicit pornography involving children poses a danger to children because of its use by pedophiles in the seduction process. Criminalizing the possession of child pornography is likely to help reduce the grooming and seduction of children. Clearly then, that is what should be done.

The abuse of children in the production of pornography is conclusive. Children are used and abused in the making of much of the child pornography caught by the law. Production of child pornography is fueled by the market for it and the market in turn is fueled by those who seek to possess it. Criminalizing possession may reduce the market for child pornography and the abuse of children it often involves. It will not eliminate it but it will reduce it and that is certainly what we want.

The impugned provision recognizes that the possession of child pornography has a particularly deleterious effect on society since the persons depicted as most directly harmed are children, our most precious possession. It is interesting that when many of us here in the House are asked to speak at high school graduations, the comment we often use when we talk to a graduating class is that they are the leaders of tomorrow. That applies no less to the people who are four years old, six months old, or ten years old who are being used and abused by pedophiles. Their lives are scarred forever.

We want to avoid that kind of thing. In spite of the fact that a lot of good legislation exists, there is a provision in the legislation which I think has to be changed. I refer to the provision for a defence of artistic merit against the possession of pornography.

What may reasonably be viewed as art is admittedly a difficult question, one which philosophers have pondered through the ages. Although it is generally accepted that art includes the production according to aesthetic principles of works of the imagination, imitation or design, the question of whether a particular drawing, film or text is art must be left to the trial judge to determine on the basis of a variety of factors.

Pornography damages children. It needs to be done away with. I recommend that the first thing the government do is destroy and delete that provision in the legislation where it allows for artistic merit as a defence.

We love our kids. I was at a birthday party for my four year old grandson just last Sunday. When I think that he might be the object of a pedophile attack, it hurts. We can do something about it and we can do it now. We do not have to wait for a long study. Do away with that defence.

[Cheryl Gallant, Canadian Alliance, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start off by marking how disappointed and sad we are on this side of the House when the member for Mississauga South refused to give unanimous consent, the only member who did so, for the tabling of 8,000 names of people who wanted to be heard on this issue. Indeed, it is not just the Prime Minister of Canada who is silencing Canadians.

In addition to preventing children from being preyed upon by adults, there is another predator in our midst. It is transmitted through adults. I am talking about HIV, the AIDS epidemic. Youth aged 10 to 24 years are of particular importance with respect to HIV and AIDS. During this period of life many behaviour patterns are established that affect a young person's risk of being infected with HIV. Both within this time span and throughout his or her adult years the risk is increased the younger the person engaged in this activity. Early intervention is essential in helping to adopt and maintain protective behaviours. That includes protection from adults.

Even the pricey Health Canada website says that a wide range of activities must be implemented in communities to help minimize the risk of HIV transmission among young Canadians. One of the activities that must be implemented is the decrease in the older population preying upon young people.

Demographic studies show that young teenagers are the sector that is fastest growing in terms of rate of incidence of HIV, AIDS and other STDs. As of December 31, 2000, a total of 17,594 AIDS cases had been reported to the Centre for Infectious Disease Prevention. Of these, 601, 3.1% and growing, were diagnosed among youth aged 10 to 24 years. Therefore, one way to curb the incidence in young teens is to take measures to prevent adults from infecting young teens. The motion before us today would help minimize the risk of HIV from transmission because older people have a greater chance of having it.

Risk behaviour data among Canadian youth showed a potential for increased HIV transmission. According to the 1996 national population health survey, NPHS, the median age at first intercourse has declined from 18 years for men born between 1942 and 1946 to 17 years for men born 30 years later. Over the same period the age at first intercourse for women has declined from 20 years to 17 years. In the year 2000 it is even lower.

While the cohort that was aged 15 to 19 years at the time of the 1996 NPHS survey was too young to permit calculation of the median AFI, data suggests that a trend toward earlier AFI may be taking place among young women, but not necessarily for men. According to the data, 25.6% of young women in the cohort between 1977 to 1981 engaged in the activity by the age of 15 compared to 21.8% of women in the previous five year range cohort. As we can see, as the age of sexual consent decreases, so too does the median age of it actually happening.

In addition to the incidence of HIV and STDs, we also have the factor of pregnancy. A woman who is mature has a much better chance in terms of a healthy delivery and health for the mother than a girl who is 14, 15 or 16.

I welcome this opportunity to speak to the motion brought forward by my party for the protection of children. It is important to clearly state from the outset why we in the official opposition brought the motion forward today. We did it for the children of Canada, our most vulnerable members of society. Whatever twisting and turning we hear today from the government, we must never forget the reason this motion was brought forward. It is for the protection of children. It is this message that I wish to stress to my constituents in the riding of Renfrew--Nipissing--Pembroke.

This is about the protection of innocent children from predatory adults. As a mother of four young daughters, I was shocked to learn from my colleague from Regina, the lowest age of consent, as clearly set out in the Criminal Code of Canada, is 14, not 16 or 18 as the government has tried to suggest. In plain English the criminal code allows an adult who is 35 or 40 or 50 years of age to claim that a child who is only 14 years of age consented to a sexual activity.

The motion before us today would raise the age of consent from 14 to 16. While many would argue that even 16 is too young and 18 is more appropriate, we believe that at a minimum the age of consent should be raised to 16. The motion is not about sexual activity between teens who are close in age, as that is a separate issue. Canada has one of the lowest age of consent laws in the developed world. The provinces and the Canadian police association are all in favour of raising the age of consent to at least age 16.

The federal Department of Justice in its own discussion paper, suggested that the age of consent was too low to provide effective protection from sexual exploitation by adults and children.

Why is the federal government so opposed to protecting children? The Prime Minister, as a former minister of justice was involved previously in proposing legislation for the repeal of seduction offences in Bill C-53 of that parliament. We know how much the government refuses to admit to its mistakes, especially the Prime Minister. One only has to recount the numerous scandals of the government and count the resignations that were not received to know this to be a fact.

In to the response to that observation, I can only say that there comes a time when petty political partisanship differences need to be set aside for the larger.

I am splitting my time, Mr. Speaker, with the hon. member for Calgary Southeast.