Debates of Feb. 11th, 2003

Canada Customs and Revenue Agency

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of National Revenue stated that CCRA's 5,000 auditors, 1,000 investigators and a special enforcement unit of 175 officers are doing their job and doing it well for Canadians. Nothing could be farther from the truth and that minister and her predecessor know it.

When I receive constituents' calls about CCRA, I tell them immediately to record their phone calls, the only department I say that for. It is absolutely important because CCRA will lie and present it as evidence. It is the only department that when I put in an application for information, I make sure that I actually have it returned. It is the only department of this House where there is absolutely no control by the minister and no inspection by the minister. It has run rampant. It runs over the rights of Canadians on a daily basis.

Protection of Children

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, tomorrow Ottawa's Black History Month committee will hold its fourth annual reconciliation day in Ottawa. At that time a tribute will be paid to Canada at a celebration at the National Library and Archives of Canada.

Tomorrow, February 12, marks the first anniversary of a very important milestone in the history of humanity and the culture of Canada. On February 12, 2002, the United Nations ban on the use of children in armed conflict came into force.

A tribute will be paid to Canada for being the first nation to ratify this optional protocol to the convention on the rights of the child. This treaty prohibits and seeks to eliminate the use of children under 18 in armed hostilities, a practice the ILO calls one of the most extreme forms of child labour.

Terrorism

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Inderjit Singh Reyat was sentenced yesterday to five years in prison after pleading guilty to 329 counts of manslaughter in connection with the 1985 Air India bombing.

Reyat has served 10 years in a British prison after being found guilty in connection with a bomb that killed two baggage handlers at Tokyo's Narita airport one hour before the Air India plane exploded on the way to England from Canada. At the time, the Air India bombing was the world's worst act of aviation terrorism and it remains the largest mass murder in Canadian history.

After the most expensive and lengthy criminal investigation in Canadian history, where is the justice? For 17 years there has been no closure to this matter for the families of the 329 victims of the bombing. Yesterday's decision will do nothing to relieve their pain and suffering. Their wounds continue to remain open and bleed.

Commendation for Bravery

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to congratulate 32 British Columbians who were honoured last week with a commendation for bravery in a ceremony at the Vancouver RCMP headquarters.

The recipients included eight civilians and 24 police constables who showed exceptional courage in the face of robberies, fires and attempted suicides. These 32 individuals who put themselves in harm's way in order to save the lives of others are truly heroes. These individuals went beyond the call of duty, entering a submerged vehicle to rescue a drowning woman, subduing armed suspects, rescuing a woman who had been shot by her husband, preventing suicides and convicting sex offenders.

I ask the House to join me in sending our congratulations and our thanks to these brave individuals and all others like them.

Goods and Services Tax

[Stephen Harper, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, over the last few months reports have been circulating of losses on GST fraud of up to $1 billion. The revenue minister has denied this, but case after case has been leaking out. The minister has not been exactly forthcoming with information, but instead will only give us information on actual convictions for GST fraud.

I will ask the minister a very precise question. Since 1994 how much has the government actually paid out in GST rebates which it believes were fraudulent and which it has not been able to collect?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to provide the leader of the official opposition with the following information.

Over the past six years the courts have identified $25.4 million in fraudulent GST claims. Further, there are 78 cases presently before the courts and the total amount of money in play is approximately $80 million. We cannot give exact figures because until the courts make a final decision, we will not know what the actual numbers are.

[Stephen Harper, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, it is not good enough to say “the courts”. The government and the minister should know the answer to this question.

We would not be fishing for this answer if there had not been a backroom deal between the CCRA and Treasury Board to cover up this information for years. This is disgraceful.

I will ask the minister again, can she answer the question? If she cannot answer the question on how much the government believes has been paid out in fraudulent GST rebates and not recovered, is it because she does not know the answer or she does not want to answer? Is it incompetence or is it contempt for taxpayers?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, my actions and my words are based on facts, on rigorous audits and examinations. I will say once again to the leader that up to this point in time over the last six years, $25.4 million has been identified by the courts. Of the 78 cases presently before the courts, the total in play is $80 million.

I ask him, where is his billion? It is speculation. There are no facts. He should either put up or not talk so much.

[Stephen Harper, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, we are never going to shut up until we get the answers to these questions.

Let me move this subject slightly to explore links between the latest GST rebate fraud and terrorism. The sum of $22 million of taxpayers' money was funnelled through a credit union run by Ripudaman Singh Malik. Malik has since been charged with 329 counts of murder and conspiracy in the Air India bombings.

How long has the government known about this link? Has anyone in the government--

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of National Revenue.

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, Canada believes in the rule of law. In this place we make the laws. It is not in the court of CBC or in the court of public opinion that people are tried.

I said to the member before that the $22 million presently before the courts is included in the $80 million in total. I say to him further that this matter is presently before the courts and he should allow the courts to do their job.

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, there are reports that in Halifax, $.2 million is missing; Calgary, $.3 million; Kamloops, $.5 million; Kitchener, $1.5 million; Montreal, $4 million; Port Coquitlam, $8.5 million; Milton, $20 million; and Surrey, $22 million; over $57 million is missing due to GST fraud. In the revenue minister's world this money has not been stolen; in the real world it has. This just may be the tip of the iceberg.

Why will the minister not come clean and give us the complete losses due to GST fraud?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think the member is listening. I said clearly this afternoon that at this point in time, the courts have identified the number of $25.4 million which is the number over the last six years. Of the cases presently before the courts, we believe it is somewhere around $80 million that is in play.

If the member has other information, I would really like to have it. I know that my information is based on fact and that his is based on hypothesis and speculation.

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, these figures are coming out from the minister's own department, so the minister clearly does not know.

The minister has said that $25.4 million accounts only for GST fraud cases that have been identified by the courts. Surely the minister's own department has the capability to identify fraud losses on its own.

Other than those cases that actually have made it to court, does the minister have any idea how much has been lost to GST fraud since 1994, yes or no?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot speculate on that which is still under investigation. Until charges are laid, we do not have a number. That is why I say that the cases before the courts, which total about $80 million, is our very best estimate. It will be the courts that finally decide because that is the way it works in this country. We investigate; when we have proof, charges are laid; and ultimately it is the courts that decide.

Iraq

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, a Security Council resolution explicitly authorizing military intervention in Iraq ought to be a prerequisite to any consideration in the House of deployment of Canadian troops, but the government will not budge.

Canadian participation in a war on Iraq ought to be voted on by MPs, but the government will not let them.

While the inspection process is working, and should be supported, are not all these roadblocks proof that, as far as Iraq is concerned, the government is already locked into a logic of war?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. We were among the first to state very clearly that a Security Council resolution was required. Everyone will remember that, back in July, August and September, there was a strong possibility of the Americans and the British intervening directly without the Security Council.

We have maintained our position, however. There has been a Security Council resolution. Now we are waiting for the report from Mr. Blix on Friday, and then we will see.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is showing no leadership whatsoever on the international scene to give peace a chance. On the domestic scene he is thumbing his nose at the role members need to play, in order to have his pro-war stance prevail. His message is clear: the Bloc Quebecois' motion must be defeated so that troops can be deployed without another resolution and without a vote in the House.

Does the Prime Minister realize that, with all the foregoing, a vote against the Bloc Quebecois motion is tantamount to a blank cheque in favour of war?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. Our position is very clear. We are working as hard as we can to ensure peace. We hope that Saddam Hussein will provide Mr. Blix with the necessary information so that all this can be settled peacefully.

But the United Nations charter contains rules that must be followed. We are insisting that all parties follow the rules of the UN.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as long as the Prime Minister continues to deny the House the opportunity to vote on sending troops to Iraq, he is preventing members from representing their constituents as they should.

Is it not an inherent responsibility in our roles as elected officials to vote on an issue as fundamental as whether or not we should participate in a war? Does the Prime Minister of Canada have so much to fear that he wants to prevent members of Parliament from fulfilling their role, an important role that is rightly theirs?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the government has the confidence of the House and is responsible for making these decisions.

Last week we said that we would allow a vote immediately following a decision, if there is a decision. Such a vote is possible because the opposition has 14 days it can use to move votable motions. If it wants to use one of these days immediately following a decision, which I hope will never have to be made, then the whole House would have the opportunity to vote.

However, in theory, it is the government that is responsible for making decisions. We were elected by Canadians to run the affairs of the nation. This is an executive power which we must exercise.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect for the Prime Minister, we are having trouble following him. We will be voting shortly on a motion to propose a vote in the House the day after a Cabinet decision.

The government has told us it is against the motion. The Prime Minister just now said the exact opposite. Could we know when the Prime Minister is telling us what the government really thinks?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the member just said that they want a vote after the government makes a decision. That is exactly what we said last week and what I said a moment ago. Once there has been a decision, the opposition may move a vote of non-confidence or approval and the members can have their say.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I say to the Prime Minister through you that a Prime Minister who had the confidence of the House would put down his own motion and allow people to vote on it in the House and not depend on the opposition.

I ask the Prime Minister, is he aware that the Canadian military liaison team in Tampa, Florida, has followed their American counterparts to Qatar? Why has the decision been taken, which brings Canada closer to military involvement in Iraq before Mr. Blix's final report, before a second resolution of the Security Council, and before any meaningful vote in the House of Commons?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have had people in Tampa, Florida, for more than 16 months planning the activities for Afghanistan, the protection of the waters in that part of the world and so on. It is part of the ongoing discussions we are having with the people participating in the war against terrorism in that part of the world.

The activities were in Tampa and now they have been transferred to another city. As we want to be part of the planning, not to be left out when we have troops in that part of the world at this time, we feel that it is important--