Debates of Feb. 3rd, 2005

Supply

[Inky Mark, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I applaud the member for Durham for painting a very accurate picture.

On behalf of my farmers from Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette I want to echo the same message. The irony is that I have been here since 1997 and not a year has gone by when we have not talked about the farm crisis.

One would think that a government that has been here since 1993 would have learned something. Still today the government is getting the two basics mixed up, disaster relief and income stabilization. It should sort that out.

We know that farmers applaud the NISA program. Did the government not learn anything from AIDA 1 or AIDA 2? We used to hear the government say that $1.5 billion will look after the farmers. However, after a year and a half there are still $800 million not allocated. Obviously the government is not fit to look after the farmers.

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Clarington—Scugog—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to reiterate this. The reason we have to keep coming back year after year, week after week, day after day and ask the government to respond is because the Liberals have reached the maximum on their capabilities of responding.

The Liberals came to the House and said that they recognized a crisis in agriculture. They put forward some proposals. Subsequent to that, they have to come before the House and fixed this and fixed that. There has been a whole bunch of tinkering and we still have not helped the farmers.

[Merv Tweed, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to start my comments by saying to the House and to Canadians in Brandon--Souris, who I represent, that surprisingly at an event I attended prior the new year, we were advised how much our communities and our constituencies were involved in agriculture and how much the income of the people living in our communities was involved. Although recognizing that agriculture plays a large role in my community, I was certainly surprised at the number, the percentage and the dollars involved.

I want to deal specifically with the motion before the House today that calls on the government to immediately drop the CAIS deposit requirement and honour the commitments it has already made to Canadian producers.

We hear time and time again from the government about all the announcements it has made to support our Canadian farm industry. While the numbers may be large and for some overwhelming, it continues to be a problem with the producers as to when the money will arrive, if it will arrive and who will benefit from it.

I want to outline this for the government, which continually talks about the amount of money that it puts into a program. It seems to believe that the money it allocates for the program will solve the problem. If the money is not being circulated and is not being moved down through a system in a functional way, it benefits no one. It benefits the government to crow about the amount, but in essence it is not benefiting the producer.

When do we know a program is not working? I would suggest it is when the deadlines are extended one, two, three, four, five, six, seven and eight times.The Liberals may stand up and say that they are listening to the people and that they are adjusting everything. However, when they continually extend the deadlines, it outlines a serious flaw in the program to begin with. It tells me that the producers are not accessing the funds that were made available or announced to be made available. That is the issue that we should focus on today.

Members from the other side have talked about the issues. We have heard them say that we should be support the Minister of Agriculture. I take a different tack on that. We should be supporting our producers. I implore the government to read what is being presented and being put forward today so they can understand. We are not saying that some of the programs have not reached the producers. We are not saying that some of the programs have not worked. We are saying to the government of the day that producers are in dire need to have a change in a program that will impact not only the current month but the months to come and into the future.

This program, if we were to drop the requirement for a deposit, which is what we are asking the government to do, would help so many producers and communities. It is not just the producers that benefit from the programs and the money that is available. It is the entire rural community that is suffering. I suspect and I would suggest that the long term downfall of these types of programs that do not work, do not apply and are inaccessible will eventually hurt our major centres too, where the manufacturers produce the products that these producers buy.

It seems like the government, and I hear this time and time again from my producers, believes that by announcing numbers and putting numbers out on the record, the public will be soothed and think that everything is being looked after and that it is dealing with everything.

The minister and his colleagues continue in their comments to talk about the dollar value, but they do not talk about the accessibility. They do not talk about whether the program is actually working. It is easy and it is confusing. It seems to be a game that the Liberals choose to play. They put a number out there and they talk about the number. They do not talk about whether it is being accessed or utilized or benefiting the people that it was designed to benefit.

In Manitoba as in many provinces, I believe the provincial governments were brought into this kicking and screaming. They believed that this was a trade injury and should be dealt with in the national area as a disaster issue. The government chose a different tact. From my experience and from what I have seen, I think it strong armed, cajoled and forced all provinces, which did participate, into doing so only to access the absolute desperate need of the producers they represent.

The questions that have arisen today do not deal specifically with the motion. The motion is very simple. If members are truthful and honest in their comments, when they travel throughout their constituencies, particularly in the rural communities, they will hear from their producers that they have no money or access to the funds that will kick the CAIS program off for them. They will know that there is a desperate need to change the program. Again, I cannot understand how a government wants to continually put up roadblocks that stop our producers from accessing the much needed money for which they are ask.

The Liberals have to immediately drop the CAIS deposit requirement. That is not a huge request. I think it is something that can be done. They talk about the money that they have put out. Obviously, it is available. Now we have to make it accessible, and that is what they are refusing to do.

We have heard from the start that CAIS has been a difficult program to understand, and not only for our producers. I am told that most of them had to hire accountants just to understand and apply for the program. Many are getting bills from their accountants of $700, $800, $1,000 or $1,500, then finding out that they do not qualify. How can a government with a conscience suggest that this is benefiting the people that it represents?

I support the motion. I urge the government to talk to the Minister of Agriculture and encourage him to support the motion, get the money in the hands of the producers who desperately need it and help save an industry that has struggled in the last few years.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's intervention and I understand his concern on this issue. I have some difficulties though with what he said.

The member was upset when I put on the record the reality, the truth, the amount of money that has been invested and made available to producers. He has said that it is not accessible. Tens of thousands of producers have been able to access CAIS to date. Many more applications are being processed.

I will not stand here and suggest to the hon. member that everything in the industry is perfect or everything about the program is perfect. Long before the motion was put in front of the House, myself along with members of the industry and our provincial colleagues had been working on that specific program. I have talked about some of the things that have been done to date in terms of covering negative margins, increasing the cap and changing the way the deposit are done. Unlike the hon. member, being flexible in terms of deadlines in being responsive to producers is a positive thing, not a negative thing. However, he is entitled to take whatever perspective he wants to on that issue.

I know he does not appear to want to deal with the reality of the situation because CAIS is a federal-provincial program. It requires both levels of government to make any changes. That is why we have been working very closely with them because it is important to do that.

I wanted to ask a specific question of the member and it goes back to the use of the CAIS to provide advances to beef producers. Many in the party opposite said that it would not work. The reality is, $115 million is in the hands of beef producers through the CAIS program, through a special advance, separate and apart from anything else that has to be done with CAIS. That is in addition to the $1.7 billion that has been invested in the industry.

Would the hon. member explain on that specific point of the CAIS program where he has the difficulties?

[Merv Tweed, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, if we talk to provincial governments, they will all tell us that the program, and what they hear from their producers, is has not worked. If the Liberals are not hearing it from their producers, they probably should get out of the office more.

Again the minister is doing the predictable thing. We stand in the House day after day and question the minister. I can quote him the numbers that he uses constantly. What that does is it sets the public up to believe that all the money and available resources are being sent out there for access to farmers, to producers. We are telling him that they are not.

He talks about extending deadlines and flexibility in the advance program. I am asking him to be flexible one more time. The producers in our province and in the country are saying that the bar the government has set for the deposit is impossible for many producers who are in a dire predicament. Through the motion, we are asking to have that eliminated.

I ask the minister to be flexible on this point.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there is no question the agriculture community in all our ridings is in a time of severe stress and a time of crisis. The agriculture income stability program may have been well-intended. I am even willing to give that.

However, when we see consequences that were not intended, then the government should be willing to make a move to address those. It is quite obvious that the CAIS deposit requirement has been pretty well universally rejected by producers. It ties up their money in deposits that could have been used for farm expenses. We know that these kinds of upfront costs make it more difficult for our producers to compete, especially internationally.

Getting rid of the CAIS deposit requirement would save taxpayers and producers millions of dollars a year. This relief would be well appreciated right now.

The member for Brandon--Souris gave an excellent presentation on this. I have been listening for a long time to get an answer from the Minister of Agriculture and I do not hear it. Therefore, I will ask the member the question.

In the work that the member for Brandon--Souris has done, what has he heard from the minister or any of his staff that is preventing the government from taking this move, which is wanted by producers? What has he heard that is significant? I would assume the minister has good reason for not helping farmers.

[Merv Tweed, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I believe that the member for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell mentioned it in his comments, and this is not new. The last three ministers of agriculture have put together a cadre of colleagues to go around the country to find out what the problem is. That member was in my riding in the last few weeks. His major announcement, after meeting with municipal leaders across Manitoba, was that it was obvious we had a problem in agriculture. I resent that comment and the very fact that the government does not even acknowledge that problems exist.

We are asking the minister and the government today to move on a motion that would save our producers. I ask him to respect that motion and vote for it.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Sault Ste. Marie.

I rise today to support the motion, but with some caution. It states:

That, in light of the numerous recent disasters affecting agricultural communities across Canada and the government's failure to deliver timely financial relief to struggling farmers, whether by the Canadian Agricultural Income Stabilization (CAIS) program or other programs, the House call on the government to immediately drop the CAIS deposit requirement and honour the commitments it has already made to Canadian producers.

Many of my colleagues have already spoken today of the challenges faced by our farmers and our farming communities and how a well-intentioned program can cause great harm instead of helping those it was intended to aid.

Many of our farmers are in an absolute crisis. I come from a rural community on Vancouver Island that has been adversely affected by any number of current government policies, including its indifference around BSE.

I would like to speak a bit more about the people affected by the BSE crisis and, in particular, talk about how the government's spotty record of supporting our farming industry is really hurting our farmers.

Our rural and agricultural communities are the backbone of Canada. There are many small farms in my riding of Nanaimo--Cowichan run by farm families trying to find niche markets to build a successful business. I want to talk about two of those families.

I first met Auke Elzinga when he stopped me at our local farmers' market to talk about BSE and how it affected him as a dairy farmer. Mr. Elzinga has been a lifelong farmer in our community, but I must point out that Mr. Elzinga has actually had to retire from dairy farming in the year since the BSE crisis started. He was faced with the problem of having dairy cows that had reached the end of their productive years as milkers. Those cattle would normally have been sent to slaughter as cull cows and Mr. Elzinga would have got back some of the money he invested. That stopped being the case once the border closed since our slaughter capacity was too low to handle the overflow of beef cattle, never mind cull cattle from dairy herds.

Mr. Elzinga found he was only getting 2¢ to 4¢ per pound compared to the $1 per pound American farmers just over the border were getting for similar cattle. This is a shameful experience when farmers have invested their entire lives in farming.

One problem with CAIS is that it has never dealt with the systematic problems for our farmers. It could not help a farmer who had built up a herd regain the money he invested over the years and it certainly could not keep that farmer in the business.

The government needs to step back and look at the agriculture sector as a whole and stop responding only to crises. What it has failed to realize with some of these policies is the importance of food security in our country. We must protect our farmers so that they can continue to be in business.

I would like to share another example with the House, also involving my riding, and one which I do not think has been discussed in the House previously. I want to thank Pacific Sun Alpacas in Duncan for making me aware of this issue.

Alpacas are part of our farming community. For those who do not know, alpacas are a fibre producing animal from the Andes Mountains in South America. They grow a lovely soft fleece wool that is very popular. Many of my colleagues may recognize alpacas from the regular commercials on Newsworld after Don Newman's political show.

Growing alpacas is a small and relatively new industry in Canada and the many farmers involved are actively trying to build the Canadian herd to provide a wide genetic variety in sufficient numbers to support the herds here, but that takes time and the closing of the border with the BSE crisis has stopped any trade in alpacas because the U.S. government included them in the ban on ruminants.

This group of farmers has not been recognized in any of the support programs that have been forthcoming and many of them are on the edge of going out of business. This happened even though alpacas are not food animals. We do not eat them. They do not enter the food chain. They are not true ruminants but camelids. There has never been a case of BSE in alpacas.

Alpaca breeders in Canada have not been able to increase their herd size or quality because no live alpacas could cross the border. This new and growing industry has been held back. The government continues to talk about the importance of diversifying our economy, and yet when farmers try to diversify, roadblocks are put up all over the place.

As I said, this new and growing industry has been held back, but since there has been no “loss”, as defined by the government under the CAIS program, this industry has not been given any help to weather the BSE crisis. This is another failure of the CAIS program. My letter to the Minister of Agriculture on this issue still has not been answered. The alpaca industry feels abandoned by the government.

As globalization increases the costs while driving the profits in conventional agriculture, many farmers are turning to smaller niche industries to survive. They are going organic, finding new products like alpaca fibre or developing local markets in which to sell their goods, but our federal farm policy works in favour of agribusiness, not agriculture.

The CAIS program is simply another example of this attitude and policy direction. Demanding that farmers pay a deposit to the government in the hope of perhaps receiving some future benefit may help large farming businesses, but small family farms do not have $10,000 sitting around to throw toward a CAIS deposit. That money is rolled right back into the farming operation and is desperately needed in many of our small farm operations.

CAIS certainly does not support small business farmers like the ones in my riding of Nanaimo--Cowichan who are diversifying and trying to find of mix of farming practices that will help them weather a crisis in any one area of their operation.

My support for the motion today is given with some caution because I do not think simply removing the demand for a deposit will help our farmers stay healthy in our current economy. We need a long term agricultural policy, one that is proactive instead of reactive so that we can start supporting our farmers instead of patting their hands and saying, “There, there, it will all be over soon”.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from British Columbia for her statement and her support as we in the NDP give our support for the Conservative motion today.

I want to reflect upon the Liberal government's attitude toward small farmers and small business farmers in that regard, because as we know, the same attitude was displayed across the country regarding our fishing communities.

As members know, what has happened to our fisheries resource is that slowly but surely more and more of this Canadian public resource is being controlled by bigger and bigger entities, the corporate entities. As well, we notice that now on the prairies what used to be small family farms are now being taken over by the big corporate farms. Thus, the little guy or the small family operation, as the member so eloquently pointed out, is facing more and more difficulty.

It appears that the Liberal government pays more attention or gives more service to the large corporate entities and passively ignores and does not give much attention to the small entities, the family farmers, those the member talked about.

With her experience in British Columbia, could the member indicate to us why the Liberal government shows this very negative attitude toward small family farms, and for that matter, toward small family fishing communities as well?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I think the question speaks to a bigger issue, which is the fact that we often overlook small business generally. We do not have a really effective small business strategy and that relates to our small farming communities. Vancouver Island is a really good example of a thriving small farm community, yet I am watching our farmers gradually having to sell their farms and go out of business because we do not recognize the value, the diversity and richness of their operations.

I encourage the government to take a look at small farms as the backbone of our agricultural economy, instead of the agribusiness.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member making an intervention in the House today. I want to ask about one of the things that she said. Moving a little away from the specifics of the motion today, she talked about the need for an agricultural policy, a more broadly based policy.

I think it is important to point out that the agricultural policy framework does exist, and yes, it deals with business risk management, which we have been spending a good amount of time today talking about, but of course the agricultural policy deals with a far broader range of issues than business risk management. It deals with the importance of producing in an environmentally sound way and it provides producers with an opportunity to have assistance in being what they are, which is great environmental stewards of the land.

The agricultural policy framework talks about renewal and providing the tools to producers and their families in respect of that. It talks about science and the importance of Canadian agriculture being at the leading edge. The reality is that agriculture is a major portion of the Canadian economy. It represents some 8% of our gross domestic product. It is responsible for hundreds of thousands of jobs. It is responsible for wealth that is created through our ability to trade.

As the hon. member talks about a broader agricultural policy, could she enunciate on those additional things that she would like to see done?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for being present during this very important debate. I think that is a valuable commitment to the agricultural policy.

I agree that we do have a framework in place, but I hear from farmers in my community that it does not meet the needs, particularly of the small farmers. My community is primarily small farmers.

I think the situation of the alpacas is a really good example of where the policy fails. It does not recognize some of the spinoffs and the diversification. The policies like CAIS and those on BSE have completely failed them. They are not even on the radar when we talk about recognizing the fact that they are in an economic crisis as a result of the BSE crisis.

It is great to have a broad agricultural policy, but I think it has to include many more of the small farmers' voices at the table in a very meaningful way. I think that then we would get a policy that works on the ground.

I am fortunate enough to come from a province that does have an agricultural land reserve, but we are watching that policy being eroded as well.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the chance once again to speak on this very important subject in the House this afternoon. The minister who is here once again will know that I have been on my feet three times since the House came back last fall on this subject, so obviously this issue is not going away.

I want to again credit the fact that he comes and listens to what members have to say. He is probably out there trying to find a resolution and an answer to this issue, but the fact that it is taking so long, that we are here yet again having a debate on this issue must indicate to him that there are still problems out there. I am sure he is hearing it himself. I know the last time I spoke in the House his colleague, the member for Glengarry--Prescott--Russell, spoke very eloquently about what he was hearing in his riding and there was some dialogue back and forth at that time.

The issue has not really gotten any better overall. There are specific instances where farmers in fact have been given a bit of relief and we have to give credit where it is due. I think that was due to the pressure that was brought by the debate that happens here, by the information, the pressure and the lobbying that goes on from individual members to the minister and his ministry, and to the fact that they are working probably as hard and as quickly as they can to push the envelope, to put pressure on those pieces of government that must work in this instance to ensure that those farmers get what they need.

There are indeed some farmers out there who have gotten some money but still there is this black cloud hanging over the industry. There is still a lot of angst in the farm community about their futures. There is a lot of work that needs to be done and the issue of CAIS is only one small indication of the fact that there is such a big demand on it at the moment. There seemingly continues to be a big demand and the fact that it does not seem to be holding up well under the strain indicates to us that there are bigger problems.

The minister will remember that the last time I spoke in the House I indicated that there were two agendas flowing out there: the agenda of the big corporate farm industry, the packers, the international trade bodies and the work that goes on out there and the interests of those people; and then there is the agenda of the small family farmer and producer in areas like Algoma, Nanaimo--Cowichan, whose member spoke a few minutes ago, and Timmins--James Bay.

I do not think there is anyone in this place who does not represent some piece of rural Canada and who is not hearing from their farmers and listening to some of the challenges. As a matter of fact, in the early new year, I attended the annual meeting of beef farmers, the Algoma Cattlemen’s Association, in my own area. There is tremendous angst out there that even though there is some money flowing now to get them through the short term, in the long term they are still not confident that there is a livelihood here. They are not confident that there is an industry here that they can continue to participate in and continue to contribute to the overall economy of this country to make it work because CAIS is not giving them the resources and the wherewithal that they need. That in itself, as I have said, indicates to us that there are in fact bigger problems.

However, before I get to that, perhaps the minister might want to comment very briefly on the CAIS review. A committee was being established by the ministry to go out and take a look at how it is working, what needs to be changed, and how it could be improved, et cetera.

I am not quite sure what the status of that is at the moment. I wrote him a letter a few months ago suggesting a couple of things. Small farmers should be represented by a small producer. I suggested the gentleman who came here with his family last fall. He continues to have a keen interest, is continuing to work very actively and aggressively within his own farm community and on the provincial scale with the Ontario Cattlemen's Association, and has a wealth of knowledge and a good grasp of the very real issues that on the ground affect farmers on a day to day basis.

I think he will be able to contribute in a very constructive and positive way to this discussion. If it is not him, then somebody else, but I would suggest that if the minister is putting together a group of people to actually carry out this review, going across the country and listening to people, it would be good to have somebody of that nature on the committee.

I am not sure if he has acted on that yet, but he might want to share that with me. I would certainly be interested to know. Through the communications that happen in this place, perhaps he could speak to people who are watching the debate this afternoon to let us know what is happening on that front.

There was another issue that I raised in my letter, which I did not get a response to yet. I am wondering if there has been any progress made. I suggested that something be done to not factor into the formula, which kicks in when CAIS is applied for, those moneys that flow in particular instances like the BSE situation that we are still working our way through.

The border is to open in early March. We are still hopeful. There is a still a green light on that. I think people are holding their breath. They are anxious about that and hoping that in fact it will happen.

Over the last couple of years they have had to apply to the government for special funds that were made available. Some of them were able to access that, but those funds and the restructuring that the farmers have to go through in order to survive that difficult period of time is now being factored into the formula for CAIS. In some instances it is affecting the results.

I know that initially there were some farmers in my own area who did not receive any CAIS funds because the computer kicked out the application that went in because of some of the restructuring that was done. Initially, they were not given the information as to why it was that the CAIS did not work for them or they did not receive their payout from CAIS. They were left not knowing and trying to make decisions on a day to day basis as to what their future would be, whether they would even continue in the farm industry. There are a lot of holes in this. There are a lot of cracks into which stuff can fall that farmers need addressed immediately.

I believe the issue before us today, brought forward by the Conservative Party on this opposition day motion, is that we drop altogether the contribution that farmers make in order to be registered in the CAIS program. I understand why that would be brought here, given the very difficult circumstances on a day to day basis of trying to stretch the dollars that farmers are running into and why that would be something the government should very seriously look at and consider. I guess on Tuesday of next week we will be voting on the debate that we are having this afternoon.

The system is not working. The CAIS program that was put in place to help farmers in situations where they are confronted with circumstances such as weather, fluctuations in the market, et cetera, that made it difficult for them to move from one year to the next has now run into a number of very huge tidal waves in the last couple of years. One in particular that everybody is aware of is the closing of the border to our beef by the American government and the challenges that presented.

It behooves us to take advantage sometimes of these realities, to actually take a good look at why it is that what we have put in place is not working and why it is that, as we look forward to the possibilities that might come at us and that we have experienced, we need to make some changes.

We have to ask ourselves why it is that programs like CAIS are needed in the first place. What is it that they are targeted or mandated to respond to so that the program can evolve, change and get fixed so that it does in fact respond in a meaningful way to the new realities?

The question is how quickly the government responds, how quickly farmers who phone and leave messages get responses, and how quickly they find out whether in fact they actually qualify. Or, if they do not qualify, how can they appeal and how that appeal process works, and the chances in that appeal that they might yet be successful once they make their case. All of that seems to be--

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am sorry, the time allocated for debate has expired, but we now have questions and comments, so we will go first to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, the member made a couple of comments which I would like to respond to and then perhaps pose a question.

Yes, indeed, it is absolutely critical that we review CAIS. That is something that has been ongoing for a period of time. It is important that it be done. There are number of ways that we are doing that.

He talked about our intention of putting forward a committee. We are in the process of doing that. We are making very certain to have at least 50% of the industry represented there. We are trying to get representation right across the country including representation from the federal and provincial governments.

However, in addition to that and it is something that I have done as well, it speaks a little bit to what the member is talking about in terms of the large entities and the smaller producers. As I travel around the country, I make a point as much as I possibly can, to not just have meetings with big organizations, but to bring producers together in a room and have a discussion with them.

I have done that in northern Ontario. I have done that in eastern Canada. I have done that in other parts of the country and it is really critical. That has to be part of the process. I know the opposition does not like me to bring this up today, but I do need to engage the provincial governments in this type of review process and to have a discussion.

The hon. member made mention of a number of things. He talked about the deposit and that is the subject here. The deposit always remains the property of the producers. They put it on deposit and then when they have to draw down on CAIS they take the deposit back, so it is actually always the producers' money. The question is, do we tie up capital for a period of time? That is the point that is being discussed here. However, the member put forward a number of other issues like inventory evaluation and the speed at which advances go through.

I have a very specific question for the member. From his discussions with producers, would he put forward specific enhancements that he would like to see in the business risk programming?

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have to be honest and say that I am not quite sure what to suggest in terms of the business risk program. Certainly, in talking to the farmers that I am in contact with, there needs to be a whole restructuring of the way that the food industry works.

Farmers are still working as hard as ever, taking the risks that they have always taken, being as creative as they can be, and yet they seem to be finding it more and more difficult with every day that goes by. Those of us who consume food are paying more and more money for the food, particularly the meat that we buy but it does not seem to be working its way back to the farmer. The farmer is not making the return on that investment that he should expect. There is a problem there somewhere.

I would hope that the minister when he comes to northern Ontario again would actually invite people like myself to some of those meetings because I want to learn too. I want to understand how I can be more helpful to the minister and to the government, and the farming community to actually improve its lot.

In our area we are looking now at the possibility of putting in place a small to medium sized processing plant so that the farmers themselves can be more in control of more of the pieces and have more profit centres that would generate some revenue that would keep them going. It would give them some return in the good times that they could set aside that would carry them through the more difficult times. That would improve the situation for all of us: the consumer; the government, which is trying to manage this very difficult circumstance; and in particular the farmers themselves.

I would get involved in that kind of thing. Make it easier for the farmers to access the capital that they might need, as we are trying to do in Algoma, and set up a processing plant if the feasibility study says yes. That is something that would probably have some potential and if we were willing to make the effort, take the risk, and put the money in, there might be some good return on that. Partner with us on that and do not make it difficult, actually be there with real money on the table to share the risk with us, and at the end of the day share in the good news and the profit.

[Charlie Penson, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar.

This is an important debate. It is one of many debates on the important subject of agriculture in which I have taken part since I was elected as the member of Parliament for Peace River in 1993. I have to say that while we are talking about the CAIS program today, it could be about the FIDP, NISA or GRIP programs; we have gone through them all in agriculture.

I have to say that yes, there are problems with this program that have to be addressed, but there is a much more fundamental problem in agriculture. It goes back to what kind of value we give our farmers, what kind of value we give our food security and our whole agriculture industry. Do we need an agriculture industry or not? That is what Canadians have to address because I see an industry slipping away from us. As slowly and surely as the sun is going to rise tomorrow, this industry is going to be gone.

I have to confess that I have a bit of a conflict. We have an over 2,000 acre farm in Alberta. My son and his wife, and my youngest daughter and her husband are farming that operation. They are having very difficult times. All four of the individuals are working off farm. That is not an uncommon situation in agriculture in this country.

When I started farming in 1968 about 17% of Canadians' disposable income went toward paying for their food supply. It was very low even at that time. There were lots of countries where 50% of disposable income went toward paying for food. Now it has dropped to something like 7%.

Canadians have to think about whether they want an agriculture industry or not. This is more than just a partisan issue. This issue is fundamental to how Canada develops because I will put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that any civilization that does not look after its basic industries and does not recognize their importance has no future.

We can look at any great civilization in the past. My wife and I spent some time in Spain this winter. Even the Moors who invaded that area in the ninth century had to have their food supply secure before they could embark on any of their great adventures. Whether it was building universities or churches, the arts or whatever it was that they wanted to accomplish, it could not take place until they had secured their food supply.

Some argue that we have a secure food supply in Canada. We produce a lot; however, we import a lot of food as well. Probably we are a net importer of food. Everything is going fine. That may be the case today, but it may not always be the case. What if we had a massive change in our currency rates as we have seen fluctuations in the past, our producers fall by the wayside and we have to start importing food into the country in a much more massive way than we do today? What if the exchange rates change again and all of a sudden food becomes very expensive? Then Canadians are going to ask us what we were thinking, why did we not look after this industry? They are going to blame us. All of us have to share in the dilemma that we have.

Let me talk about my own family history. My family came from the highlands in Scotland. They were driven out during the clearances. The clearances were when the lords owned the land and there were tenant farmers. They were part of my history. The lords decided that they could graze sheep and it would be much better than growing grain on the small parcels of land. While they may have been right, it caused massive disruption to the people living in those areas, depopulation in fact. All kinds of people came to Canada as a result of the clearances.

My family came to a little place called Vernon, Ontario, just 30 miles south of here. They had a small farm. They saw it as an opportunity, but it was not big enough. There was a lot of Canadian Shield. When the plough was put in the ground it hit rock more often than soil so they moved on. They moved out to the Peace River country in Alberta because there was an opportunity for land. They did that in 1910. The farm that we have in our family is almost 100 years old. That is the case with many people who farm today.

I saw something different from what they saw. They were looking for and saw opportunity, the potential to realize what they could develop. They were very good at it. They were very good at building their farms and exporting grain and food products all around the world, but something has changed. Canadians no longer value their farmers.

I predict as surely as I am standing here that the agricultural industry will not be able to survive the current assault on it. It will simply not be able to survive.

I have all kinds of neighbours and friends. I can give the House an example. After I was first elected in 1993, a young lady phoned me and she was crying. She asked me if I could do something because Farm Credit was taking their land away. She told me about their situation and I said that I would certainly look into it and see what I could do. It turned out that they were further behind in their payments than she had told me. I could see no hope for them. I had to phone her and tell her that I did not think they would be able to make it, that all they would be doing was paying interest.

They were good farmers. They were third generation farmers in an area of the Peace River country. These people had come from Quebec and settled in an area north of us. They were very good farmers, but they were losing their place. That young couple had to move on.

I saw that young lady last year, but I did not know who she was. She came up to me and said that she just wanted to thank me for what I had done for them. I asked what that was. She said that I had advised them that they would probably need to move on to some other industry. She said that they gave up the farm and it was like an elephant had been taken off their backs. They now have nine to five jobs. That is happening all over the country, but who will produce the food in the next generation?

I challenge the government and all parties in the House to give more thought to where we are going in this agricultural industry. On the trade side we know that subsidies worldwide are beating us up, but there are things we could do. We could reduce or take off the excise tax on farm fuel. We could take the excise tax off fertilizer. We could give tax breaks to farmers who are buying equipment. Those are things that are within our control.

We could be much more aggressive on the trade front internationally and talk to trade blocs like the European Union. We must tell them that their policies are driving our farmers out of business, and that if they continue to do that, we will have to take action against some of their products. We have been too timid on that front. It is hurting us a lot.

Our farmers can produce with anybody in the world on the basis of production and competitiveness, but they cannot compete with the treasury of the European Union with 500 million people to support it, and they cannot compete with the treasury of the United States. We simply have to lend them a hand. They cannot make those arguments for themselves. They expect their government to do it and the government has been far too timid.

It is time to step up to the plate. Otherwise we will lose a very important part that will affect our ability to grow as a country and develop, because I do not think any great civilization can exist if it does not have security of its own food supply. That is where we are going today.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I really appreciate the comments by the hon. member. They are not directly on today's motion, but I think he brought up some very important points.

I agree very much with our, meaning the country's, needing to recognize that if we are to have a successful Canada, one that will work well, then both of its component parts, urban and rural Canada, need to be strong. Five large urban centres that are growing with increasing populations and expanding economies surrounded by weaker rural areas is not a model of this country that we want to promote or that we want to see.

I do not know if I would totally agree with the hon. member when he said that Canadians generally do not appreciate agricultural producers. They may not express that appreciation and they may not say it overtly all the time, but I believe that they do. I also recognize the importance for us to demonstrate, as the member said in his comments, the importance of that. I think deep down Canadians of all stripes see that.

The hon. member made a very good point. This is the basis of the question. He talked about input costs and trying to deal with some of those by using the tax system and other methods. Input costs are obviously part of the equation. The other side of the equation is the amount of income that comes out of the marketplace for producers.

We have been talking about disaster programs, and the CAIS program, which is there to deal with unexpected interruption of income, and it is very important and very critical that we make those investments. On the long term side of it is making sure that there is an appropriate return from the marketplace. My parliamentary secretary has spent a lot of time in that type of discussion.

The member broached that subject. I would be interested if he would come up with some ideas on how he thinks we should create that environment that would allow for a better return from the marketplace for our producers.

[Charlie Penson, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to do that.

Regardless of what kind of program is put into effect, there are difficulties with it. It has been subject to the same problems like the old GRIP, which essentially meant that if a farmer grew wheat year after year, he could make more money farming the program than he could farming other commodities that were not covered under other programs. It does not matter. No matter how well intentioned these programs may be, they are of a supplementary nature by their very description and necessity.

It seems to me that the minister is right. We have to get more money out of the marketplace. That is clear. That used to be the case. We used to export products to Britain. Canada was the biggest supplier of wheat to Britain for a long period of time. We have lost that market because other trade blocs have moved inward. The European Union for example basically does not allow any imports of products. Worse than that, it is using export subsidies to get rid of its overages every year.

There was some hope for a while that the European Union was going to move for trade liberalization and stop export subsidies, but as we see again this year it intends to use massive export subsidies to buy market shares, and that is really going to hurt us.

For example, if Canada were to tell Algeria that it had good quality wheat for sale for $120 a tonne, and the European Union with its export subsidies told Algeria it would sell it for $60 a tonne, there is no magic in knowing who would get the sale. While it is not an exact displacement in volume, it is enough to distort the market and it has been for a long time.

That is what I am talking about when I say we cannot compete with the treasury of the European Union with 500 million people to support it. We have to have some sanity in the market.

In other trade areas we have been able to get tariffs and subsidies down worldwide. Right after the second world war people decided that they had to do something that would stop the causes of the Great Depression and the war. They introduced international institutions such as the United Nations, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the general agreement on tariffs and trade which evolved into the World Trade Organization. Those institutions gave a great deal of assistance. Agriculture has largely stayed outside that system, but we are trying to get changes.

Canada has taken a very strange position. We are asking for trade liberalizations or access into other countries' markets, and we are telling those countries that they cannot have access into our markets in some other products. It is pretty dyslexic and it hurts our position. Basically it takes our position off the table and other countries say we have nothing to contribute.

That is what I offer by way of answer to the minister.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Calgary Centre-North, Oil and gas industry; and the hon. member for Vegreville--Wainwright, Firearms program.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, as I sat here this afternoon and listened to the minister's comments, he kept speaking about how much money has been put into the CAIS program. Therefore, I decided I would quickly phone my office and ask for some letters that we have received here in Ottawa. This is not the file cabinet full that we have at home in the riding.

I want to tell the minister about the frustration of producers. I also want to tell him about problems in his CAIS program. This is a letter I received from a farm widow who is farming. She says:

As I continued reading the requirements for these programs, FORGET IT!. I've done this for Aida, CFIP--the system has access to my income tax which records all this info. I refuse to do any more--just because some high priced CPA has decided to change what are eligible expenses for farming--which in itself is a joke--you can no longer claim machinery repairs!! That and interest expenses are probably the highest costs of the little farmer. Just goes to show governments are trying to force us off the farm!

The farm programs that have been introduced are just propaganda. The Joe Urban residents think farmers are getting money. Wrong! The only ones making anything are those shifting papers, making phone calls, asking stupid questions of farmers, reading insults re info on their forms.

I've had it and I will no longer be in the CAIS program.

Dorothy.

Here is another one. It says:

First off, the CAIS program, I would say has more holes in it than a fishing net... [We cannot make] our land payments, credit card payments, equipment repair payments, and land tax payments, on an annual basis. This is not due to lack of knowledge or effort. My dad is a skilled farmer, and is teaching my brother and I well on the ins and outs of running a farm. But I am afraid we are running out of chances and the next bullet we take may be our last. If it isn't drought and grasshoppers hindering feed and grain production, then it's BSE and poor grades of grain due to early frost. Dad cannot afford to retire even though he is seventy-one years old, and my brother and I want to continue the operation, but continue to see a bleak future in agriculture. This year we will again be short cash for bill payments, direct causes of BSE and a poor grade of grain. The CAIS program, from what I understand, is supposed to be aiding struggling farmers such as ourselves and get us through these tough times. Oh, really? It does? Perhaps this government could explain why we got only $750 from CAIS when I don't remember the last time we had a good year? It's a joke. An insult. Why would we get $750 when I can't sell cull cows for even 10¢/lb?

--but no, thanks, it can't even pay the power bill....

We, however, are not going to quit, we are not “whining farmers”. the fight is not gone in us, just taking its toll. All I want to know is how bad do things have to be until you receive support? And, how long are we going to dangle before our government smells the coffee and gets support to those who really need it?

That was written by Andrew, a very young farmer.

Here is another letter from a young farmer. It say:

The Canadian Agricultural Income Stabilization program has serious shortcomings as indicated in the attached copy of a letter to the CAIS Appeals Board.

The CAIS program deficiency is highlighted by the following questions:

Is it reasonable and fair that the level of stabilized agricultural income should be based on financial returns for three years of disastrous growing conditions?

Should it be necessary that three years of devastated crops be followed by bumper crops in order to establish a realistic level of stabilized income?

If three years of bumper crops and above average income were followed by a fourth year of only average crop yield and income, should the fourth year quality for CAIS assistance?

Your assessment of these concerns is respectively requested.

The attached letter to the CAIS appeals board reads as follows:

The 2003 CAIS Supplementary Application by...was processed by the CAIS Program Administration, and it was determined that the farm operation should not receive assistance. A review of this decision is requested.

Farm income for the past three years (2001, 2002, 2003) was significantly below average. To use this record to determine a reasonable level of stabilized agriculture income is obviously unrealistic. In each of the three past years hail and drought have devastated our crops. The following is a summary:

2001--Hail

Average year of a total barley crop = 6.24 bushels/ acre

2002--Drought Total Crop Loss

Average yield of the total flax crop = NIL

2003--Drought

Average yield of the total canola crop = 9.3 bushels/acre

It was crop insurance payments in each of these three years that presented complete disaster for our farming operation. DOCUMENTATION IS AVAILABLE TO SUBSTANTIATE THE ABOVE INFORMATION.

If the income during such extreme growing conditions is used to determine the level of stabilized income, I respectfully suggest that the CAIS program is seriously flawed.

That was written by a young woman who was trying to farm.

I have another letter. It states:

I have now completed my application under the new CAIS Program for 2003. I fear a similar situation to the 2002 CFIP fiasco could repeat itself because of the inconsistency in advice and information given from your CAIS staff. Let me cite some of the examples.

When I called to see if there was anything besides the CAIS Supplementary Form to be sent in I was told that was all. So I completed these forms and sent them along with my 2003 and 2004 Options Notice for each entity, by Express Post on April 18, 2004. At the accounting office where I work during the tax season, discussion arose that CAIS would need a Statement A for our corporation in order to process our application. I called CAIS at 8 am on April 20, 2004 to double check the information I had previously been given and, sure enough, Marcel told me Statement A for Corporations would be coming and be required for all corporations.

On April 26, 2004, I called CAIS to confirm they had received my April 18, 2004 Express Post. David told me they received the Supplementary Forms on all three entities on April 21, 2004, the 2004 Options Notice had been entered, but not the 2003 Options Notices. On April 28, 2004, I called again. The 2003 Options still had not been entered, even though they were sent in the same package as the 2004 Options Notices, but Joyce assured me that she would enter them. On April 30, 2004, I called again, talked to Donald, and he confirmed that the 2003 Options Notices had been entered--thank you Joyce! this time. During one of these calls I was also told CAIS received the tax information for all three entities on April 27, 2004. How they had the tax information for our company when Statement A hadn't been sent in yet, I am not sure.

There is more, but I do not have time. Is the minister getting a sense of the futility and frustration that the people in our provinces are feeling. She begs, “Mr. Prime Minister, I implore you to do the right thing and rectify the situation”.

We need support. There is huge frustration in the rural communities because of this program. Like my hon. colleague from Peace River, I come from a family farm. I have a young son that wants to start farming. I implore the government and the minister to do what is right and fix this agricultural program before we have no family farms left in the country.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's intervention. I think it is important, as we talk about the macro issues, that she take an opportunity in the House to talk about some of it in terms of real producers.

Since taking over the ministry back in July and being in my job for seven months, I have had the opportunity on six separate occasions to travel to her province to do just what she is asking me to do, and that is to deal with individual producers. I had an opportunity, shortly after August 20, to go south of Regina to visit with producers in their fields and see the crops and devastation that the frost had wrought on them. It was heartbreaking. After a number of years of drought and other difficulties, to have in their grasp as the summer went along what would appear to have been a bumper crop grabbed away in one night of frost was devastating. It was a heart-rending thing to see.

I am glad the hon. member mentioned production insurance. It is part of business risk management. It is jointly funded by the federal-provincial government and the producers. It is an important part of business risk management. I am pleased to see the hon. member mention the importance of that.

In our discussions today in respect of CAIS, I have made a couple of points. First, we have been on an ongoing basis, working with the province and with producers, trying to put additional component parts to it and improvements in it, things like adding negative margins, increasing the cap and changing the deposit requirements. We agree that we need to do additional ones.

In addition to that, we have also made the point about the importance of understanding that there is real help flowing to producers. We have seen over 15,000 producers in Saskatchewan receive payments of some $236 million, and that is in respect to the 2003 CAIS program. That is not to say that the issues and the concerns raised by the individuals she spoke to are not important enough to put forward.

I would like to ask her the question because she has provided a number of examples about CAIS. In addition to the deposit issue which we have on the table today, are there other specific changes that she would like to see contemplated as the review of the CAIS moves forward?

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of things that we need to do in the CAIS program. It has to be spelled out for farm families exactly what the Liberal government is planning for them. We hear stories about environmental programs, but we have no concept of what they are. Farmers are scared that there will be more paperwork and more time spent on accounting and filling out forms than being able to farm the way they should.

The minister has to understand that there is a severe frustration out there. The secretary was recently in Saskatoon at a closed-door meeting. Members of Parliament were not even allowed to go to that meeting. We did not know who attended. It is beneficial to work together to solve the problems in agriculture in Canada by having all members of Parliament in attendance. We did not need to sit at the table with them, but it could have been an open forum so we could have sat back and listened to what the farmers had to say and to verify what we heard from our constituents.

I have files and files in my Saskatoon office from farm families who are devastated. We have acres of wonderful, productive land but no one to buy it. It will sit there until someone comes along and farms it . We heard it before today, it will not be the small family farm. It will be large corporate farms that will not care about the environment, that will not care about the rural communities and that will not care about the small businesses that are being devastated by a bad program and financial support from the government.

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am thankful for the opportunity to rise today in the House of Commons to speak to this important motion. It is an honour to speak on behalf of the constituents of Palliser.

This is not the first time that I have risen in the House to urge the government to drop the CAIS deposit requirement, nor will it be the last.

I made a pledge during the election campaign last June to defend the men, women and families of Palliser whose livelihoods depend on agriculture. Given the lack of response from the government to the disasters in the beef and agricultural sectors over the past two years, it is vital that Palliser families have a voice in Ottawa that they can trust to do the right thing. The right thing, as the leader of the Conservative Party and my colleagues have told the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, is to eliminate the CAIS deposit requirement.

There is no place in Saskatchewan that has been more affected by the agricultural crisis than in my riding of Palliser. This crisis goes back farther than the past year or two. It is a crisis the Liberal government has failed to address for an entire decade.

When the Liberals came to power, they joined with our provincial NDP government to scrap GRIP, the program that was widely seen as a helpful mechanism for farmers. Despite outcries from our agricultural communities in western Canada, the program was scrapped. Throughout the next decade the Liberals attempted to find another program which they could pawn off on western producers.

The Liberal government has failed. It has failed to stabilize the farming industry over the past decade and the CAIS program is a shining example of how the Liberals have slighted the agricultural industry in Saskatchewan and throughout western Canada.

CAIS was created in order to help the agricultural industry as a whole. However, like so many other programs before it, it is flawed. One of the biggest flaws with CAIS is that it is far too complicated. That is why the farmers in my riding are referring to the CAIS program as the “chartered accountant income stabilization program”.

Mr. Speaker, I neglected to say that I am splitting my time with the member for Macleod.

Farmers in the Palliser area have told me that it has cost them upwards of $2,000 to fill out the application because they have had to hire accountants. This is preposterous. It is preposterous to expect a farmer whose crop has frozen and who has no means of income to come up with thousands of dollars to start the application process. However, the biggest cost of CAIS is the deposit, and that brings me to our supply day motion.

The deposit is the biggest problem with the CAIS program. The deposit is a huge cost and a terrible burden to producers. In order to even collect money through CAIS, farmers will need an extra $5,000 to $10,000 just to make their deposit payment.

Farmers coming off three consecutive disaster years should not be expected to come up with thousands of dollars to maintain their livelihoods. These families are the heart and soul of this country. They are the ones who put high quality food in our mouths every day and this government is only making their lives more difficult by requiring them to make a massive deposit that they simply do not have.

Prior to the Christmas break I rose in the House and urged the government to eliminate the CAIS deposit requirement. That was in November, prior to the deadline for registering in the program. Today I ask the members opposite: what has happened since the end of November with regard to the deposit?

Unfortunately, the answer is nothing. That is a familiar pattern for the government. There is a lot of talk but very little action, unless it is shamed into doing the right thing.

One would think it would have learned to act before Canadians became outraged. One would think it would follow the example of the Conservative Party and demonstrate leadership and vision on this issue. I would hope that would be the case, and I think families in Pense, Rouleau, Mossbank, Wilcox and communities throughout the great constituency of Palliser would also hope that would be the case. But I am afraid that when it comes to listening to people affected by this issue, the Liberals have once again failed.

Given that the Minister of Agriculture does not appear to have the time or the interest these days to come out and listen to the producers in Palliser, let me tell him and this government what I have heard, because I have been listening to my constituents.

People are calling because of the administrative problems with CAIS. My constituents are telling me that those administering the CAIS program cannot seem to keep up with the applications that are being submitted. That means farmers who are able to come up with the deposit are being forced to wait extra months for the money to arrive. That is disgraceful.

If our farmers are expected to meet deposit deadlines, then the CAIS program should provide payments quickly to ensure the survival of those same farmers. For some farmers in my riding, that is the only money they have left. If it is not received in time, it may be the difference between keeping the farm and losing the farm.

Before I conclude, let me tell members what the people of Palliser are saying. Last fall one of my constituents wrote to me. I would like to quote from that letter:

We have just received our notices for our deposit requirements due in the spring. Our 2003 application has been processed but we have received no funds--going on 9 months. I ask you to tell me why this deposit is needed and how is it expected that producers will be able to meet this new deadline?

I had another letter from a constituent who has farmed north of Moose Jaw for the past 39 years. He wrote:

We in the farming community have had the worst farming year in my career.

We began 2004 fairly normally. On August 19th we had what looked like a good, maybe even a bumper, crop.

Then came the frost on August 20th. The crop was gone.

We did not realize how much damage the frost had done until we started harvest.

Our crops yielded well but the quality of our grains was very poor...by and large grading feed quality. Some of our wheat was so badly frozen, that it has no value at all.

Our farming income from the 2004 crop is going to be 25% of what would be normal.

The result of these low prices means that, without some help, many prairie farmers will not survive. I will not be able to pay my land taxes for this year, nor will I be able to plant a crop in the spring of 2005.

Maybe the Minister of Agriculture could tell the House how this man is supposed to come up with the money for his CAIS deposit when he cannot pay his property taxes and he cannot even afford to plant this spring.

These people speak from the heart and their sentiments illustrate the depths of the agricultural crisis in Saskatchewan. In my riding, hundreds of people have signed a petition calling for the elimination of the CAIS deposit because they recognize that it is a barrier to enrolment. I will present this petition later this session.

The deposit amount may not seems like much to a government that is running a $9 billion surplus or that shovels $250 million in sponsorship money into the hands of Liberal Party cronies, but it makes a big difference to the farm families around me and to everyone who has had to sell a vehicle or borrow money just to pay their CAIS deposit.

Today is the day for action. I ask the members opposite to support this motion. I ask them to do the right thing, drop the CAIS deposit requirement and honour the commitments they have made to our producers.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, it was good to hear from another member from Saskatchewan. We had the discussion with his colleague before about the very difficult situation that the frost of August 20 caused for producers in Saskatchewan. As I said, I have had an opportunity to see that first-hand and it is indeed a very difficult situation.

I am glad as well that the member also brought up, as did the previous member from Saskatchewan, the importance of production insurance and how important that is as part of the business risk management program. When we talk about business risk management we are talking about the CAIS program, yes, but we are also talking about production insurance. We are also talking about the spring and fall advances, which are an important part of the process in Saskatchewan and which are also funded by the governments as well. I think that is important to note.

I made the point before in Saskatchewan and I will make it again. Some $237 million to date has gone out to producers in Saskatchewan. That is important. That is not to suggest for a moment that it is all of the solution, but it is important to note that this kind of assistance has gone forward.

I do have a question for the member. He talked about the need to act. In September, long before the House came back, we put forward the $488 million for a repositioning strategy in terms of BSE and we put in place set-aside programs for both fed and feeder cattle. As a result of that we saw a price recovery in both of those areas from the lows in July, a price recovery which is helping producers. The hon. member said that nothing was being done. Is there something with that kind of initiative that the hon. member objects to?