Debates of March 5th, 2013

Opposition Motion--Senate

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate my hon. colleague for a thoughtful speech. I would like to get his views on the following.

First, I have heard members opposite say that we have to have a second chamber to counter what they have termed “majoritarian rule”. I am reminded that four provinces in the country did have senates at one time and managed to abolish them and retain one body in the province governed by the principal of majority rule without any noticeable deterioration with respect to democracy. I wonder if the member could comment on that.

Second, I would like to ask his views on the issue of equality. As we know, there are 6 senators in British Columbia, which has 4.5 million people, and there are 4 senators in Prince Edward Island, which has 140,000 people or 1/40 of the population of British Columbia. I wonder if the member could comment on the prospect of having a chamber in our Government of Canada that is so grossly disproportionate in terms of equality.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, of course the political history of Canada is overcoming the evils of upper chambers. The provinces have done it. I referenced Robert Baldwin earlier. It was all about making sure people have control. These changes we are proposing, to abolish the Senate, would permanently do that.

We also need to move on with other reforms, such as proportional representation, ensuring we have full expenditure transparency in the House, and making sure our independent officers of the legislature are firmly protected and funded.

There are a lot of other things we can do right now that should also be addressed. It is our job to make sure we leave democracy in Canada better than we found it, and abolishing the Senate will do that.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member gave a very good set of remarks. However, there is one issue I think he is conflating.

Robert Baldwin and Louis-Hippolyte LaFontaine, whose statue sits right behind the Senate on Parliament Hill, did not advocate for the abolition of the Senate. They were concerned about the unfettered power of the executive council, which today we call the cabinet. Therefore, they felt that the legislature and Parliament as a whole should be the check on the unfettered executive council and the unfettered Governor in Council power. That is the difference between what they argued for and what the NDP opposition motion is proposing.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, all reforms have to start somewhere. In the 19th century, we had the Baldwin and Lafontaine reforms moving forward to give people more power over their governments. This is a continuation. I think they would be sitting on this side of the House arguing for abolition if they were part of this debate today.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today as we debate an NDP motion to abolish the Senate.

I believe that this antiquated, archaic, illegitimate and undemocratic institution must disappear as quickly as possible. As it stands, the Senate represents the worst of both worlds. Unelected and almost impossible to get rid of despite their many indiscretions, senators claim to represent Canada's regions and have the power to block measures passed by the House of Commons, whose members are elected. That is unacceptable in a democracy.

Before I go on to explain why the Senate should be abolished, I would like to point out that our motion states that abolition should occur in consultation with the provinces and territories. We recognize that any reform affecting the balance among the federation's institutions must involve all stakeholders. We want to get rid of the Senate as quickly as possible, but we have to do it properly and we must respect the provinces. We think we can come to an agreement.

Since 1970, every province has deemed its upper chamber useless and abolished it. Ontario, Nova Scotia and Manitoba all support abolishing the Canadian Senate. British Columbia's premier has stated that the Senate no longer serves a purpose.

The number-one argument for abolishing the Senate is that it lacks democratic legitimacy. Senators are not elected. They have the power to introduce, amend and block bills, but they are not accountable to the people.

I think that the most appalling example of this was when, in 2010, the Conservative majority Senate blocked the NDP's climate change accountability bill, which a majority of the people's elected representatives passed. Manipulating democracy, a handful of unelected senators overturned a decision by members of the House of Commons.

In addition to not being elected by the people, senators are almost impossible to get rid of. Even if they vote against the interests of the people, even if they misbehave, as we have seen over the past few months, even if they misuse their expense accounts, they have a job for life in the upper chamber. Only a criminal conviction can boot them out.

Senators' dishonourable conduct and the institution's inability to self-regulate have discredited the Senate in the eyes of Canadians. In the past few weeks, revelations about abuses of public funds have left a bad taste in taxpayers' mouths.

Take Senator Duffy, for example, who claims to live in Prince Edward Island so that he can get reimbursed for his fancy house in Ottawa. And what about Senator Wallin, who is supposed to represent Saskatchewan but lives in Toronto? And then there is Senator Mac Harb, who since 2010 has claimed $31,000 in housing allowance for a secondary residence in Ottawa, when really, he has always lived in Ottawa.

I would like to make a quick comment. Last weekend, I was stunned to hear Senator Carignan defend senators' excessive expenses by comparing their travel expenses to those of MPs. How can he show such bad faith? How can he begin to compare a senator's travel expenses to those of an elected member who travels throughout his or her riding to get feedback from constituents and to explain the policies adopted in Ottawa? Senator Carignan's comments show just how out of touch senators are.

To come back to the motion we are discussing this afternoon, I would like to say that on top of these cases of abuse of public money, there are all the other situations that have deeply shocked Canadians. Take Patrick Brazeau, for example. He could sit in the Senate for another 36 years, even though he is quite often absent, he has abused his housing allowance and he is facing charges of domestic violence and sexual assault.

There was also the case of Senator Lavigne, a Liberal who eventually resigned from the Senate after being convicted of breach of trust. He had a Senate employee do landscaping work on his Wakefield property. Of course, the work was done during office hours, on the taxpayers' dime. Interestingly enough, if the employee had not been so incompetent as to cut down some of the neighbour's trees and spark a court battle, this story might never have come to light and Senator Lavigne would still be sitting in the Senate.

The fact that senators are not chosen on merit only makes the legitimacy crisis even worse. Appointments have always been partisan. Long before he was appointed as a senator, Mike Duffy mocked senators for getting “taskless thanks” as opposed to doing “thankless tasks”.

And although he said he would never appoint unelected senators, this Prime Minister has appointed 58 senators since 2006. Like his predecessors, he has appointed dozens of friends of the Conservative regime.

I am thinking of people like Doug Finley, national director of the Conservative Party campaign in 2006 and 2008; Irving Gerstein, former chair of the Conservative Fund Canada; Don Plett, former Conservative Party president; Carolyn Stewart-Olsen, the Prime Minister's former communications director; Michel Rivard and Leo Housakos, major Conservative organizers in Quebec; and Stephen Greene, Preston Manning's former chief of staff. I could go on and mention senators like Josée Verner, Claude Carignan, Suzanne Duplessis, Fabian Manning and Percy Mockler, former Conservative MPs or candidates.

Indeed, this government has politicized the Senate so much that even former senator Michael Fortier has had enough. This weekend, he spoke to Evan Solomon and said:

“I was very naive. ... I thought it would be a different place than the one I found. I found it to be extremely partisan...on both sides, including my own, and it was very annoying because these people were trying to be members of Parliament, and they weren't.”

I am talking about the Conservatives, but the Liberals were no better. Senators Dennis Dawson and Francis Fox, for example, two former Liberal MPs, were appointed to the Senate by Paul Martin in August 2005. Since then, they have been actively involved in election organization for the Liberal Party. It is shameful.

Since 2006, the Prime Minister has taken a piecemeal approach to reforming the Senate. He has proposed limiting the length of senators' terms and consulting the public in the selection process, but these proposals do not make the Senate more democratic. The results of the public consultation are not binding on the Prime Minister, and there is nothing to make a senator resign after eight years, as the Prime Minister has proposed.

The Conservatives' Senate reform has been hitting a constitutional wall for seven years now. The Supreme Court will have to render a decision on a reference that the Conservative government has just made. Can the government move forward without the provinces' agreement? Nothing could be less certain.

The Prime Minister needs to realize that it would be impossible to reform that institution. Since 1874, barely seven years after Confederation, the Senate has been the subject of criticism and calls for reform. In fact, on April 12, 1874, the House of Commons considered a motion recommending that “our Constitution ought to be so amended as to confer upon each Province the power of selecting its own Senators, and of defining the mode of their election”. Here we are, 139 years later, still debating this issue.

I was rereading a speech the Prime Minister gave to the Vancouver Board of Trade in 2007. I would like to quote part of it:

We are dedicated to the basic proposition that Canada needs the Senate to change. And, if it cannot be reformed, I think most British Columbians, like most Canadians, will eventually conclude that it will have to be abolished.

I ask all my colleagues in this House to support the NDP motion to abolish the Senate.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member's speech and I have a simple question.

If the Government of Canada were to propose the abolition of the Senate and convened a first ministers meeting to get that done, what would her party do if the Province of Quebec demanded as a fundamental constitutional amendment in advance of the abolition of the Senate that the four or five requests made in the Meech Lake accord by the Province of Quebec be implemented before that abolition? What would be her party's position on that?

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for the question.

We believe that the government must work with the provinces and territories and not act unilaterally to abolish the Senate. We say that in our motion.

However, we also know that the majority of provinces and territories are in favour of abolishing the Senate, as I mentioned in my speech. In fact, they abolished their upper chambers in the mid-1900s. We know that many provinces support the NDP motion. I invite my Conservative Party colleague to support it as well.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad that my colleague brought the issue forward that there are even senators coming out now and saying that we should abolish the Senate.

When we speak about the Senate, I think it is important to consider the incredible disconnect that most Canadians have with the institution and, with Mr. Fortier, consider the reality.

Most people could not name the senator who represents their region. They are funded in a similar way to members of Parliament, yet they have basically done nothing with respect to the public and do not have the public responsibilities that elected officials do.

The fact is that unlike MPs—who, if they are doing their jobs conscientiously, have a presence in their communities—senators are ghosts, mere notions of representation at best.

Can my colleague tell me if she knows how many Canadians go to their senators with problems? How often do senators actually help the people they ostensibly represent? I am just wondering. To me, it is no wonder that the Senate is under a microscope. Across the country people are continually being told they will have to make do with less, while these party lapdogs shower themselves in entitlement.

How is that fair? How is that democratic?

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is not fair to Canadians.

On the one hand, the Conservative government is telling Canadians and families in my riding to tighten their belts. On the other hand, a number of senators are abusing public funds. Canadians obviously do not accept the Conservative Party's message.

I would also like to address another point that my colleague raised: the fact that this chamber, which is made up of people elected by Canadians, is supposed to carefully study legislation and pass well thought-out bills.

We already have the tools to do this—parliamentary committees. We are supposed to invite experts and members of civil society to appear before committees to talk about laws. However, the Conservatives have abused their power in committee and forced meetings to be held in camera.

We have also seen the Conservative members reject all the amendments proposed by members of civil society and the opposition parties during studies of bills in the House.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to be here today to debate a topic that is quite relevant in today's society, inasmuch as it seems that the Senate has been dominating the news cycle for the last month or so. A lot of Canadians will be interested to hear what members of the chamber have to say about the relevance of the Senate and whether it should be abolished, as the NDP suggests, or be reformed, as our government is proposing.

I should begin by giving some of my personal observations and where I have come from throughout the years to finally maintain a position on the Senate. I have to be quite honest: before I was elected as a member of Parliament, I leaned toward abolishing the Senate. At that point in time I did not really see the relevance of the Senate, because I did not understand the role that the Senate played. I think that would be true of most Canadians. Unfortunately, although most Canadians may know we have a Senate and may know we have an unelected upper house, they do not truly understand the role the Senate plays in today's society and in today's Parliament. I was one of those.

However, since I was elected as a member of Parliament in 2004, I have changed my views. Over the years, I have seen that the Senate does play an important and valuable role. However, I do not think the Senate is currently constructed in the correct manner.

We have seen from time to time—and all members of the House could attest to this—that over the last 100-plus years since Confederation, Senate committees have been able to explore issues that are of importance to all Canadians. I can list many valuable reports conducted and completed by Senate committees that influenced not only Parliament in the lower House but also how Canadians view certain subjects throughout the country.

It is not quite fair or accurate to say that the Senate should be abolished because it has outlived its usefulness. I do not believe that, now that I have seen the Senate at work. However, it is imperative that some fundamental changes be made to the Senate to allow it to perform at its utmost capacity. What I am talking about, quite frankly, is reform.

Right now, as everyone knows, senators are appointed. Even though there is a life cycle to the time that senators can spend in the upper chamber, it is far too long. One theoretically could be appointed to the upper house as early as the age of 30 and could sit in the Senate without fear of reprisal for 45 years. That is wrong. We have to impose term limits on senators, although the length of time for which senators should be appointed is up for debate. Our government has suggested a nine-year non-renewable term, but that length of time could certainly be debated. Some flexibility could be shown by our government if we got into meaningful debate about meaningful reform. Unfortunately, we never seem to be able to engage in that meaningful dialogue with the opposition ranks.

In addition to the term limits, which I will talk more about in a moment, there is one more fundamental reform that I would like to see enacted in the Senate, and that is the way in which senators are brought into the upper chamber. Right now, as I mentioned, it is through appointment. That is the wrong approach, primarily because we do not have the accountability that is required for senators.

Right now, as we all know, senators are primarily responsible to represent the regions from which they come, but through being appointed, there really seems to be a lack of accountability. If a senator is appointed and then fails to adequately represent his or her region, how does one make the senator account for his or her behaviour?

They cannot be fired. I suppose they could be dropped from the Senate if they conducted themselves in an untoward manner, but even then, there are only a few circumstances in which an individual could be dropped from the Senate.

However, in this place, all of us are completely accountable to our constituents. Why? It is because we are elected. If we do not represent our constituents to their satisfaction, we could lose our jobs, because every four years or so, we face the public. We have an election. That is basically a referendum on our performance. If my constituents are dissatisfied with the job I have been doing, they have the right, at the next federal election, at their next opportunity, to vote in someone else and express their dissatisfaction. However, in the Senate, the constituents of the region a senator represents have no such ability. Once a senator is appointed, the constituents of the region that senator is supposed to represent have really no ability to force that senator to account for his or her actions. That is absolutely wrong.

Therefore, I firmly believe that there should be some form of election. Whether it be through Senate consultations or direct election is up for debate. However, we need to have a process in place that allows and forces senators to be accountable to the people they represent.

We, as elected representatives, have term limits. Sometimes the term limits are as short as 18 months. Sometimes they are as long as four and a half years, because the term limit is from election to election, not to a maximum of 45 years.

The first time I was elected, in 2004, it was by the staggering plurality of 122 votes. Be assured that from that moment on, I paid great attention to the needs and demands of my constituents, because I knew that if I did not represent the wishes and the feelings of my constituents, the next time an election rolled around, I might not be sent back to this place. That is accountability, and that is the type of accountability we need in the upper chamber. That is why we need Senate reform.

Unfortunately, we have seen, on a number of occasions, that reform packages we have brought forward for discussion and debate in the House have been ultimately filibustered or rejected by members of the opposition. Therefore, I think we have taken the correct and prudent course of action by asking the Supreme Court to give its opinion.

We have brought forward a reference to the Supreme Court on four fundamental points that deal with the Senate and potential Senate reform. The first is term limits. We want the Supreme Court to advise Parliament on whether Parliament has the constitutional ability to set term limits for senators. We also want the Supreme Court to comment on the selection process and whether it would be constitutionally viable and achievable to have some selection process other than the current appointment process. Furthermore, we want the Supreme Court to comment on the number of senators for each particular region. We want it to talk about residency requirements. We also want the Supreme Court to comment on the issue before us today, which is whether the Senate could be abolished without the need for a constitutional amendment.

Anyone who has studied our Constitution, and we have many academics in the House who have become learned about the Canadian Constitution, would agree with one thing: while it is vitally necessary, it is also, and can be, from time to time an extremely complex and complicated document. There is still an argument, even with some of the basic questions about Senate reform, about whether constitutional amendments would be required to begin with, and if they were, what form constitutional amendments should take.

Some would argue that on certain reform initiatives, the 7/50 process would be required. For those people who are not aware, 7/50 simply means that certain constitutional amendments require a minimum of seven provinces, representing at least 50% of the population of Canada, to agree on a constitutional amendment before it could be put forward. However, others, even with the same democratic reform initiative, would argue that 7/50 is not the type of approach we should take and that we need unanimous consent. There is argument within the Constitution itself and debate among academics and constitutional experts, even within the democratic reform initiatives we have put forward. Does it require only a 7/50 approach, or will it require unanimous consent?

For us as parliamentarians to sit here and suggest that we know how to reform the Senate is, quite frankly, foolhardy. That is why we have asked the Supreme Court to give its opinion. I believe that once we had an opinion from the Supreme Court on a host of questions we have asked, we would be in a better position in this place to start moving forward. I do not believe, however, that we are currently prepared to even deal with the question put forward by the opposition today, the question of whether the Senate should be abolished, because we do not know, quite frankly, whether we have the constitutional ability to abolish the Senate. I do not know how many arguments have been proposed to date by members of the opposition, but I would challenge each and every one of them who suggest that we have the constitutional right and ability to abolish the Senate should we wish to do so. I challenge opposition members on that, because I do not believe we know if we have that ability.

The Supreme Court will render an opinion on that, hopefully sooner rather than later. However, even if it suggests to Parliament that we have, within certain guidelines, the constitutional ability to make fundamental changes to the Senate, such as abolishment, then and only then, I believe, should we start engaging in a debate on the future of the Senate. I firmly believe that we need to try to reform the Senate prior to abolishment and prior to even consideration of abolishment. As I mentioned at the outset of my speech, I believe that the Senate can perform a vital role in Canadian society, but we have to make some very obvious changes to the way in which it does business.

Opposition members seem to be suggesting today that there is no hope for the Senate, that its usefulness has outlived itself. I believe that they are shortsighted in their thinking. If they actually took a hard look at the accomplishments of the Senate over the past 100-plus years, they would understand, as I understand, that there is a vital role for the Senate to play. It has made contributions to Canadian society over the years, and I believe that it will continue to make vital contributions to both Parliament and Canadians across this country.

It is a difficult time for any parliamentarian right now to be talking about changing the Senate, in light of all the adverse media attention the Senate has been receiving. I recognize that. I understand that. I get that. However, I have to think that we need to set aside, if we can, just for a moment, some of the recent controversies we have seen occurring in the Senate and look over a longer period of time to see what the Senate has actually accomplished.

I would be the first to suggest that if, in my opinion, the Senate had not contributed vitally to democracy and the Canadian way of life that fine, we would do away with it. I do not share that view. I share the view of many other Canadians that the Senate can continue to play a vital role in today's society. We just need to make some fundamental changes, and that means reform.

Therefore, I would like to ask for unanimous consent to propose a motion, as I know some of my colleagues have done earlier today. I move that, notwithstanding any standing order or usual practice of the House, Bill C-7, an act respecting the selection of senators and amending the Constitution Act, 1867 in respect of Senate term limits be deemed to have been read the second time and referred to a committee of the whole, be considered in committee of the whole, deemed reported without amendment, deemed concurred in at report stage, and deemed read the third time and passed.

I believe that if the opposition is truly interested in making the Senate a viable force in Canadian society, it will support this unanimous consent motion.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

No, he does not.

Question and comments, the hon. member for Jeanne-Le Ber.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member was doing so well up until that last little bit. I appreciate the words he shared with us. I appreciate his thoughts.

Before I continue, I would like to thank my colleague for Toronto—Danforth for bringing this motion to the table, because it allows us to debate this issue. As my colleague across the way said, this is a particularly hot issue right now because of what is happening in the news. However, I think the fact that this is happening tells us why we need to have this debate.

The answer from the other side is to have elected senators. The election process is a good thing, because it creates democracy for Canadians. However, I would like to ask my hon. colleague how creating another partisan level to this place helps make things better. I think the number one thing Canadians want is for this place to work. How would creating an even stronger partisan environment in the Senate help move things forward?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, to be quite honest, regardless of whether there were Senate elections or appointments, as we now have, one could argue that there would still be a partisan atmosphere. One could certainly argue that if one were appointed to the Senate, one would then be beholden to the person who made the appointment. Senate elections, one could argue, would be the same thing. If one were running on behalf of a particular political party and were elected, one would follow partisan or political lines. The argument can be made on both sides.

My point is simply this: I believe that there is more accountability if we elect senators, combined with term limits. When we put those two elements together, senators who are elected to represent the constituents of the region they reside in have to be accountable, because they were elected to begin with.

However, one of the reasons I think we need to debate the government's position on making non-renewable nine-year terms is that, one could argue, if it is a non-renewable term, there is no accountability, because at the end of nine years, they are gone anyway. If, on the other hand, there were renewable terms, perhaps that would take care of the entire accountability package.

I know that we have stated that we would like to see renewal. After nine years, we need to get new members with new ideas in. My only comment is that just because ideas are new does not mean they are necessarily better. We are elected, and we can be re-elected. I think we should give some consideration to whether term limits should be renewable or non-renewable.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, would my colleague accept the distinction between a problem and an enormous problem?

A problem is that a senator is appointed when most Canadians, including me, would like to have an elected Senate. An enormous problem would be to have two chambers elected, paralyzing each other, as is the case now in the United States, putting at risk the world economy, or, in Italy, where they are unable to form a government when its economy is collapsing.

A problem is to have Alberta and British Columbia being under-represented in a modest Senate. An enormous problem would be to have Alberta and British Columbia under-represented in a powerful elected Senate.

Will my colleague agree that it would be stupid to change a problem into an enormous problem?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I am not sure that I would consider anything regarding the Senate reform package to be stupid. However, with respect to the member's initial comment as to whether electing senators could cause a problem by having partisan interests trump the will of the government, we have that now. Even though the senators are appointed as opposed to elected, we have seen that if there is a government that does not have the majority of the Senate, the Senate can block government legislation. That occurs in the current configuration. Therefore, going to an elected Senate as opposed to the current appointment process does not necessarily mean we would solve the problem that the member has identified.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there seems to be hypocrisy here. We have the New Democrats constantly being on both sides of the issue. Their leader says that he wants to give new powers to the Senate, yet today we see a motion saying to abolish the Senate. We have a member asking if by leaning to elections for senators we would have a more partisan process, yet they claim that the Senate is already a partisan body. They are speaking out of both ends of their mouth.

In the opinion of the hon. member, have the New Democrats thought out this abolition of the Senate? If we see that happen, what would be the natural next step for the New Democrats to deal with the changes to the House of Commons? The Senate right now has a floor for how many members it can have in the House. Have the New Democrats thought further than this motion here today? Are they thinking about the impacts this would have on Atlantic Canada? I would like the hon. member's thoughts on this.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would say no. The motion today has more to do with politics than it has to do with reasoned argument. That is why I mentioned during my intervention that we need to hear from the Supreme Court. The prudent course of action is the one we have taken, and that is to ask members of the Supreme Court to gather their opinions on whether the Senate can be reformed on a number of different fronts.

For the opposition members merely to suggest right now that the Senate be abolished, when in fact they do not even know if that can be achieved constitutionally, is at the very least extremely poorly thought out, and at the best disingenuous or, as my colleague calls it, hypocritical.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I admire the parliamentary secretary's optimism, but I think he is a bit naive if he thinks that it will be easier to sell the provinces on holding votes in each province, with the same rules, at their expense, and then to all agree on a standard procedure across the country, from coast to coast. That seems very difficult to me. I think it will be easier to convince the provinces to get rid of this institution, which is used for all kinds of stunts. For example, a senator wanted to get his book translated, so he read it out in the chamber, in order to get an inexpensive translation into French.

It is time to wake up. There are all kinds of expressions that work here, for example, “stop flogging a dead horse” or “putting a Band-Aid on a wooden leg”. I could go on.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question, but frankly he weakens his argument. He is supposing that he knows the positions of the provinces. He does not. No one does. He does not even know what the constitutional arguments may be. That is why we referenced this to the Supreme Court.

It is entirely presumptuous for the NDP to think that it knows what Canadians feel and what the provinces feel about the role of the Senate. We need to engage them, but first we need to get a clear, concise, precise answer from the Supreme Court on what constitutional requirements there may be for any meaningful reform, including abolishment. To suggest, as the NDP has done, that we can merely abolish the Senate and have the full support of all provinces and territories is absolutely foolhardy and wrong.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his very learned speech. He is a veteran of this chamber and knows what he is talking about.

The first thing I would like to ask him is whether he can speak about what he thinks the intentions of the New Democratic Party might be insofar as abolishing the Senate. I know from past history around the world that when very socialist leaning people are elected they immediately clamp down on democratic institutions to further their own agenda. I would hate to see a $20 billion carbon tax not stopped by the Senate.

Could the member speak about what he supposes is the impetus from the NDP on this matter?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague and good friend from Wetaskiwin for his question. Obviously any opinion I have is only my opinion, but as I said at the outset, this debate is more about politics than about substantive change. I think that is quite clear to any Canadian who is tuned in today.

Again, I would go back to many of the comments I made earlier. Let us wait to see what the Supreme Court has to say about the issues we brought forward. Let us not play politics on something as important as this. Let us wait and do things right: put politics out of the equation.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am thankful for the opportunity to speak to one of my favourite subjects.

I would like to acknowledge that I will be sharing my time with the member for Hull—Aylmer.

I will focus my remarks a bit differently than some members, simply because, to me, a lot of these scandals that are happening right now with respect to expenses and where people live is really a symptom of the problem and not the real issue. I am glad that Canadians are focused on it because it is a real part of the problem. However, it is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the direction we are going in, whether it is status quo or moving to an elected Senate.

We should recognize that right now Canadians think the Senate sits and does not do any real harm; how much good it does is questionable, so why would we upset the apple cart? What we need to remember is that under the current system every appointed senator's vote carries more weight than those of us who are elected. That is by virtue of the fact that bills have to pass in both houses. There are fewer seats in the other house; therefore each vote carries more weight in our parliamentary system. This is not some add-on or little accessory to our parliamentary system; this is a key focal point.

Fellow Canadians must keep in mind that these scandals involve the people who make the laws and that there is no accountability. At the end of this Parliament, those of us who want to be re-elected have to go to the Canadian people and be accountable for the decisions we made and the things we did or did not do. That house does not report to the bosses, who are Canadians. That is the focal point of what we are talking about.

In my view it is critical to understand that we do not have the luxury of the traditional Canadian way of approaching things. We like Goldilocks solutions. Some issues are a little too hot, some are a little too cold, and we like the soft spot or the warm spot in the middle. That is the Canadian way. We look for compromises and ways for people to get along.

The problem in this case is that what looks like a Goldilocks solution is as dangerous as the status quo. I would argue that it is even more dangerous. The status quo or abolishing means that the middle is not voting. That is not the Goldilocks solution. I am shocked that there is any member of the west in the House who is willing to elect the Senate, give senators even more power and let them utilize all of the constitutional authority they have. If I ever ran for an open seat in the Senate and got elected as a senator, I would certainly exercise every bit of the mandate that I have been given, just as I do now as a member of Parliament.

In 1980, the Supreme Court of Canada stated this with respect to electing our Senate:

The substitution of a system of election for a system of appointment would involve a radical change in the nature of one of the component parts of Parliament.

The Supreme Court of Canada stated that to elect members to the Senate is a radical change. That means that radical change would entrench the following: British Columbia, with over 4.5 million people, would get six seats in the Senate; Alberta, with 3.8 million people, would get six seats; Manitoba, with 1.2 million people, would get six seats; Saskatchewan, with just barely over a million people, would get six seats; Newfoundland, with a population of 512,000 people, would get six seats; and, just to round it out, P.E.I., with a 150,000 people, would get four seats.

Why on earth would any member of the government, in particular those from the west, support electing the Senate to entrench that power, when the numbers are so unfair? If I were from B.C., I would begin every speech about the Senate with how unfair it is that there are not enough seats in my province to reflect our population and that it is unfair, undemocratic and needs to be improved.

In fact, I was just at the procedure and House affairs committee an hour ago, and the whole exercise around redoing the boundary commission reports is all about the number of people per riding. It is an important gauge of our democracy,yet here we are with a Senate that is extremely skewed against the west, and the government members seem to be willing to entrench that, exacerbate it and make that unfairness go on forever.

I just want to say to my friends in western Canada that as a proud Ontarian, I will stand up every chance I get for their right to proper representation, even if some of their own members will not.

I have a couple of last things.

Some of the good work and the good deeds the Senate does are often pointed out. It is possible to point to very good studies that help all of us, but the issue is whether the people who authored those reports should also be given the right to vote on laws.

That is the point. It is not whether they do good reports or not, or whether they do good deeds; it is a question of whether or not they should be entitled to pass judgment and vote on our laws, particularly when their vote has more strength than our vote. Is that really the way we want a modern democracy to operate?

If we need good deeds done, we have lots of good citizens we can call on to be on a royal commission or a blue-ribbon task force or a stand-alone commission. There are lots of people willing to do that. It will cost us some money, but it will be a lot less than the $100 million a year the Senate costs. Most importantly, we will not be bestowing upon them the right to vote on our laws. In a democracy, they should not be able to vote on laws unless they are accountable.

By the way, the government's current proposal to elect the Senate means that by law they cannot be accountable. They would run in an election on a platform of “Here is what I will do; I promise to do this, that and the other.” Then, if they were elected members of Parliament, they would come here and spend a few years, and at the end of the Parliament they would go back to Canadians and say “Here is what I promised. How did I do? Are you going to give me the right to go back, yes or no?”

Under the current government proposal, they can make any promise they want. They would serve a nine-year term and then be prohibited by law from running again. How are they supposed to be accountable? It gives no accountability, and that is what democracy is about. That is why this proposal does not work.

On this whole notion that the Senate is a chamber of sober second thought, spare me. First of all, structurally they have whips. Why is there a need for a whip if everybody is independent? Why is there a need, if there are no caucus positions? Why is there a need for a whip if everybody is supposed to give everything sober second thought?

They have a whip because it is a caucus system in all but name. There are a few senators who are truly independent, but most go to the weekly caucus meetings, and they do not rotate through the three caucuses. They go to their home caucus, the Liberal caucus or the Conservative caucus. They say, “Yes, sir. Yes, sir.” to the Prime Minister at the end of that caucus meeting, just like very other member, and they march into the Senate and do what their partisan politics dictate that they need to do.

Mr. Speaker, you are indicating my time has concluded, and I can only hope that the time for the Senate is equally concluded soon. It is the best thing we could do for this country, and the sooner we get rid of the Senate, the stronger our democracy will be.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his passionate speech. I would like him to answer a question without dodging it.

His party is hoping that the rule of 7/50 will prevail, and not unanimity. Does that mean his party is ready to get rid of the regional veto act first?

Second, if Quebec is against it, does that mean abolishing the Senate without the view of Quebec? If it is not the case, if the NDP does not want to do that to Quebec, in which province is the NDP willing to abolish the Senate against its own view?

Can I have a very clear answer to this question?