Debates of Nov. 25th, 2021

Resuming Debate on the Order Respecting the Business of the House and its Committees

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I continue to be heckled. I cannot stand that the Conservatives give it but they cannot take it. To all the students and to all those employees who went to work virtually over the course of the pandemic, and to doctors and nurses who still saw their patients, for the Conservatives to stand here today—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

Order. I am having trouble hearing. Let us allow the member for Pickering—Uxbridge to finish her question.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, thank you.

Will the Conservatives stand in their place and apologize for accusing Canadians of not working throughout the pandemic? They went to work virtually and went to school virtually, and did the right thing to keep Canadians safe.

Is the member going to apologize?

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Mr. Speaker, obviously the member thinks the media is here, because there is the feigned hypocrisy of a Liberal who is asking me to apologize. I am standing up for people who want to see us work here. I know people work virtually. You all worked virtually. What I am saying is that there are some people who cannot. There are some people who have to get up and go to work every day because they do not have the opportunity to do it virtually.

I am standing up for ranchers and the oil and gas people who have to put their boots on and go to work every morning, the people the Liberals do not respect. They hate what we do in western Canada. Every time they get on their high horse, which must be because of the media up there, they feign hypocrisy, and they rub shoulders with global elites in Glasgow and make sure they look down their noses at all of us. I am standing up for the people of Regina—Lewvan and I have no need to apologize for that.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

I want to remind members of the House about using the word “you”. I never thought I would get to remind members about using the word “you”. Just be careful about that.

The hon. member for Port Moody—Coquitlam.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, up to one-quarter of adult Canadians live with a disability that does not allow them to lift hay or farm in fields, yet they do work. They work in every area of our economy.

Does the member acknowledge that work does not mean physical labour, physical ability or physical attendance in the House or anywhere else?

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my hon. colleague from Port Moody—Coquitlam that work means almost everything. It means many different things to many different people. However, would she agree that there are also people who have to go to work each and every morning and do not have the option of doing it virtually over a computer screen? They have to put their boots on and go to work every morning.

Why do we always talk about divisive policies like this? Why can we not stand up for all working people across Canada instead of pitting east against west? I think that has happened because the government has not done one thing to try to unite Canadians.

We on the Conservative side would like to talk about everyone going back to work, everyone having opportunities to support themselves and everyone having a better life and a better future for themselves and their children. That is what the Conservatives want to talk about. I would really love for us to stop talking about this divisiveness of east versus west.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was flustered earlier and so I did not take the time to recognize my constituents in Longueuil—Saint‑Hubert. I thank them for putting their trust in me. When a person gets elected the first time, there may be some luck involved, but when they are re-elected, then it must be at least a little bit because of who they are. I would therefore like to congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, on your appointment.

When one listens to the Conservatives, one cannot help but think about their relationship with science. We know that when it comes to climate change, something people recently met in Glasgow to discuss, scientists around the world are saying that we need to eliminate fossil fuels. Meanwhile, the Conservatives are going around with little stickers that say “I love oil and gas”. They are promoting oil when everyone knows that we need to move away from using it.

I also do not understand why the Conservatives are complaining. The Liberals are doing better than them. They have been investing $14 billion per year in the oil industry since they took office. There are even some environmentalists who miss the Conservatives. That says a lot.

With regard to vaccination, we heard that 30% of the Conservative members got an exemption while scientists are saying that only 1% of the general population should be exempt.

My question is simple. Do the Conservatives believe in science?

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Mr. Speaker, absolutely. I am not a doctor, so I do not know about the medical exemptions, and I do not play one like the deputy House leader tries to play here when talking about medical exemptions. What I do know is that I love talking about the oil and gas sector and that a strong oil and gas sector makes for a stronger Canada and brings Canada together. I appreciate that my colleague said that.

Also, Mr. Speaker, congratulations on your appointment. It is very well deserved. Great job.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Outremont.

Since this is the first time that I am standing in the House in the 44th Parliament, I want to thank my constituents of Ottawa West—Nepean for putting their faith, confidence and trust in me once again as their member of Parliament.

I would also like to thank my family, especially my husband Don, my stepdaughter Courtney and my mom Maria, for always being there and supporting me throughout, as well as my volunteers and supporters.

I am pleased to participate in the debate on the government's motion to implement a hybrid sitting approach. The motion is proposing that we adapt our procedures and practices so that all members can fully participate in the proceedings of the House either in the chamber or by video conference. It is an important motion. The pandemic is ongoing and we require the flexibility that a hybrid system would provide.

I would like to paint a complete picture of the government motion.

First, the motion would allow all members to participate in the proceedings of the House in person or by video conference. The members who would attend in person would have to be double-vaccinated or have a valid medical exemption in accordance with the Board of Internal Economy's decision of October 19, 2021.

The motion also proposes certain changes to the Standing Orders of the House to take into account the virtual participation of members. For instance, members who participate remotely would be counted for quorum purposes. All standing orders relating to such requirements as standing when speaking, or being in one's seat in the House, would be amended to allow for participation by video conference.

The motion would also allow documents to be tabled or presented to the House in electronic format. For instance, members participating by video conference could table documents or present petitions or reports to the House in electronic format during Routine Proceedings. However, the documents would have to be forwarded to the Clerk prior to the members' intervention.

With respect to committees, the motion would allow members to participate in committee meetings remotely or in person on the condition that they meet the vaccine requirements set out by the Board of Internal Economy.

The motion proposes a process for recorded divisions in hybrid proceedings. The motion would bring the remote voting application back into use. This application was used successfully for over 120 votes in the second session of the 43rd Parliament. The remote voting application would also allow members to cast their votes safely, securely and conveniently. However, the motion takes a cautious approach. It would direct House administration to carry out an onboarding process of all members, which would be completed no later than December 8, 2021. The remote voting application would be put into use no later than December 9.

Until the remote voting application was implemented, members of the chamber would continue to vote by standing votes, and members participating remotely would be called one by one to cast their votes. The motion proposes measures to ensure the integrity of the remote voting application. Votes would need to be cast from within Canada using a House-managed device. A member's visual identity would need to be validated for each vote. Any member unable to vote because of technical issues would be able to connect to the virtual sitting to indicate their voting intention.

Lastly, the motion also proposes a process for the supplementary estimates (B) for the current fiscal year.

The motion provides that, on a day appointed by a minister of the Crown, consideration of the supplementary estimates shall be taken up by a committee of the whole at the ordinary hour of daily adjournment. At the conclusion of the four hours allotted for consideration, the committee shall rise, and the estimates shall be deemed reported. This is the approach that was used at the beginning of the last parliamentary session because the composition of the standing committees had yet to be established.

It is important to note that the motion states that this method of operation would be in effect until June 23, 2022, the last day on the sitting calendar before the summer break.

The government is proposing a reasonable and pragmatic approach to ensure that members are able to participate in House proceedings while respecting public health guidance. This motion supports the fundamental role of members of the House.

The government has always recognized our essential role in representing our constituents and holding the government to account. The government has supported members in fulfilling this role since it came to power. The government has promoted free votes for members of the governing caucus and established the Prime Minister's question period. When the House was adjourned at the beginning of the pandemic, the government sought ways for members to fulfill their roles.

The former government House leader wrote to the Speaker to ask whether House administration would be able to implement virtual sittings. This is because the government wanted to ensure that the House could continue to hold the government to account during the pandemic. The House passed government motions in April and May 2020 to instruct the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs to study how members could fulfill their parliamentary duties while the House was adjourned during the pandemic.

The committee undertook two thoughtful studies on this issue. In its second report, the committee recommended a detailed set of standing order amendments that would codify procedure for hybrid sittings and remote electronic voting. The committee also proposed guidance for the development, testing and implementation of a remote electronic voting application. The committee's reports provided valuable guidance to the House and to House administration in implementing a hybrid sitting approach in September 2020.

I want to stress this point. The motion does not propose anything new. During the last Parliament, in the face of an unprecedented public health crisis, the House adopted creative and innovative ways to debate, transact business and make decisions using a hybrid approach. From September 2020 to June 2021, the House sat with members in the chamber and members participating remotely. All regular business of the House was conducted, including consideration of government legislation and private members' business.

During this time, 19 government bills received royal assent. This legislation has a real impact on the lives of Canadians. For example, Bill C-4 created three new temporary recovery benefits to support Canadians who were unable to work because of COVID-19. Bill C-9 put in place targeted support to help businesses with emergency rent and wage subsidies. I hope members will come together to support the important economic measures that the government is proposing in Bill C-2 to address the current phase of the pandemic.

Regarding private members' business, six private members' bills received royal assent and six private members' motions were adopted during hybrid sittings. This success shows that it is possible to consider legislation and other important matters in a hybrid approach.

A hybrid parliament would also allow for better work-life balance, especially for members with young children. During the debates on the Standing Orders and House procedure in February 2021, several members from different parties mentioned the importance of work-life balance. Several members also noted that the hybrid Parliament and electronic voting made it easier for them to juggle their various responsibilities during the 43rd Parliament. Allowing members to choose whether to take part in House proceedings in person or remotely would make it easier for them to balance their responsibilities at home and at work.

I certainly hope that all members of the House will pass this reasonable motion so that we can do our work in a safe way for our constituents.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to stand in the House. It has been a mere few days for me as a newly elected member. I was sent to this place to get to work, not to debate the desire to hide in a basement. It was hugs on the other side on Monday, and we are debating hiding on Thursday.

How is it that the Prime Minister can call an election, criss-cross the country, campaign in hospitals and gallivant around Scotland with a delegation of hundreds at COP26? Why is it that 18,000 people can go see the Toronto Raptors win and the government cannot agree to have 338 members in the House? How does the member explain this to the good people of Ottawa West—Nepean, who sent her here?

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have been in this House for six years, and I know that members in this House work hard every day. I find it both insulting and disingenuous that the member opposite would accuse any of us of wanting to hide in basements simply because we want to maintain public health measures. We need the flexibility in this place to make sure that we ourselves are not becoming vectors of the virus.

My riding is here in Ottawa. My constituents are working in the restaurants. They are the bus drivers and others. We are coming here from 338 ridings. I heard members on the other side suggest that members come in sick. I do not think there is a workplace in this country where employers would encourage their workers to come in sick. This could potentially spread the virus to those who work on the Hill and to my constituents working in downtown Ottawa.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate you on your new role, and I congratulate the member for Ottawa West—Nepean on her victory.

To me, this debate is very much about the role of technology, not just now but throughout history, in allowing societies to be more productive and work in a safer way. I see the fact that we can use video conferencing as a way to continue to do our very important work but in a safer way. I think that all governments are encouraging employees, whether they work in offices or factories, to use technology, if they can, to work in a safer way.

Would the member not agree that the advent of video conferencing technology has, in many ways, not only allowed us to work more safely but also expanded the privilege of members? We know that some members might be absent for personal reasons. Perhaps they are ill, or they have an ill family member. Now they could continue to participate, whereas before they could not come here to speak and vote.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I could not agree more with my hon. colleague. The one thing that is absolutely vital about democratic institutions is resilience and the ability to modify and adapt to changing circumstances. Institutions, by their nature, need to reflect and adapt to the current environment they we are in, in order to serve Canadians.

My hon. colleague is absolutely right. The use of technology has provided a level of flexibility that serves Canadians even better.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, congratulations on your new position.

First, I would like to thank all the people of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, who elected me to this 44th Parliament and to a second term.

Let us be honest. There is a double standard in Parliament. We bicker and we talk incessantly. I think it is important to remember that we went out on the campaign trail when we did not want to. We stood before our constituents. We are all double-vaccinated. There were some interpretation issues.

The scientists speak for us. We are certainly responsible and must follow public health guidelines. Moreover, our position is aligned with public health measures, as I said before. I also have to say that we are using common sense.

Why has something smelled fishy since June?

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Speaker, our main responsibility here in the House is to protect Canadians and their health. We need to keep that in mind in everything we do.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is the first time that I have had the opportunity to stand in the House in this new Parliament. I will therefore take a minute to thank the voters of Outremont, Côte-des-Neiges and Mile-End for their renewed trust.

My constituents sent me here with a clear message. They want to see progress in the fight against climate change, and they hope that the housing crisis will be resolved, that gun control measures will be strengthened and that the economic recovery will be strong, green and fair. I am eager to start work on these issues.

As this is my first time rising in this chamber in this new Parliament, I would like to take a moment to thank my family, particularly my husband for his incredible support, as he is back home in Outremont with our young daughter so I can be here in Ottawa. I would also like to thank all of my volunteers and supporters, in addition to, of course, all of the voters in Outremont, Côte-des-Neiges and Mile End for their renewed trust and confidence in what was my third election in two and a half years. I will tell them, as well as all of my colleagues in the House, that I am just getting started here.

I am pleased to comment today on this motion to allow Parliament to operate using a hybrid format. As many people have mentioned, the pandemic is not over yet, and we need the flexibility that a hybrid system would provide. This system works. Our adaptability and ability to leverage new technologies enabled us to truly transform the way we carry out our parliamentary duties.

The hybrid Parliament allowed us to fulfill our obligations toward Canadians as elected officials, while protecting our colleagues and support staff.

I must admit that I am disappointed that the parties in the House were unable to reach an agreement on how we could adapt our procedures for this new session. I hope that we will be able to reach a consensus in the House to reinstate a hybrid system.

With this in mind, I would like to point out that the motion before us today would allow all members to decide whether to take part in proceedings of the House in person or by video conference. Each member would get to choose for themselves, and that is a very important point for me.

The proposal that is on the table does not prevent any member in this House from being here in person to take their seat, nor does it dictate when or how members can participate in the deliberations of this chamber. Members have the choice of participating in person if they wish. Giving maximum flexibility within the parameters of the public safety regulations that will be enforced is what this motion is all about.

This is important for me, as I know it is for other colleagues. Our ability to stand in this chamber to speak on behalf of our constituents is critical to me and to others, and it is entirely protected by the proposal put forward in this motion. What is also protected is the ability of members who may be symptomatic, or sick, or even members who were in contact with someone with COVID-19 and therefore need to isolate, to continue doing the job of representing their constituents and having the opportunity to vote and make their voice heard.

What I think I have been hearing from some of my Conservative friends is that, if I get a notice on my COVID-19 alert app saying that I have been in contact with COVID-19, then I cannot vote. That is ridiculous. I should always, always be able to vote. I should not be denied the opportunity of casting my vote on behalf of the constituents that sent me there.

I believe those Conservatives speaking out against this motion are actually arguing that we need to limit the ability of members from participating in Parliament and doing our job. I ask them this: Why?

There is a way to ensure that through a hybrid formula, a virtual option, all of us can do the job of representing our communities. Why do they wish to deny that of me and other members? I do not know.

Nothing in this motion prevents us from interacting in this place in person, absolutely nothing. The motion simply provides the opportunity to those who cannot be here in person to continue doing their jobs, which is what Canadians have sent us here to do: our jobs.

As we know, the motion before us today provides that those who take part virtually will be counted for the purpose of quorum.

The motion also provides for changes to the Standing Orders to take virtual participation into account. For example, all references in the Standing Orders relating to certain requirements, such as the need for members to rise when speaking or to be in their place in the House, will be changed to take the virtual nature of the proceedings into account.

The motion also allows documents to be tabled or presented to the House electronically, and that is a good thing.

In the current circumstances, we must be innovative and flexible to continue to represent our fellow citizens as safely as possible. That is one of the reasons for this motion to create a hybrid Parliament.

I would now like to address the issue of safety and security, and I do not bring this up in the context of my own safety. I recognize that I have been sitting in this chamber of 338 seats. I also recognize, as is quite obvious to everyone now, that when we rise to speak, we take off our masks. However, what concerns me is not my own health but that we are each, as leaders of our communities right across the country, travelling back and forth to our constituencies.

We will go back to meet with and serve the people we represent this weekend. There will be the people we see at spaghetti dinners and the children at the community fairs. Those are the people who sent us here, and there is nothing more important to me than protecting them. When I hear that many, possible dozens as we do not know, Conservatives appear to have exemptions allowing them not to prove their vaccination status, I wonder what higher principle they are defending.

We know that only about 0.001% of people are expected to require a medical exemption from vaccination. That is what the science says. Therefore, I question what is going on here. Are those Conservative members fighting for an issue of personal freedom over the collective well-being? If that is the case, let us address that debate head on and not mask it, if members will permit the expression, with debate on whether the option of participating virtually in order to vote means that we are doing our job.

While I am, like many Canadians, happy to return to restaurants after showing proof of vaccination, and I encourage everyone listening to support our small businesses and our hospitality sector, and while I, like many Canadians, am happy to get back to work in person to see my colleagues and do the work that we know often needs to be done in person, I also want to ensure that we are not vectors for the spread of this disease to different regions of our country. We can do that most effectively by ensuring that there is, first and foremost, a strict vaccine mandate for those entering this chamber and also by providing options that would allow members to do their job from outside this chamber if they are experiencing symptoms or if they have been in contact with COVID.

The vaccination debate is polarizing, I know. We are all free to make choices, including personal choices about our health. However, some choices are simply unacceptable, like refusing to show proof of vaccination to enter the House alongside almost 400 people from around the country who are in contact with many other people.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member very much for providing her uptake on this.

To me, as I look at everybody in the chamber, we have met that benchmark. We have been told to do this or to do that. I am fully vaccinated. I have members within my own family who I have to ensure will be safe. However, when I am really concerned after being out, after a couple of days, I might do a rapid test. This is something we are asking of people who come here with these medical exemptions. We are asking that they have to test, and they are doing it. I am very concerned with the idea that members are talking about being able to have everybody here. I think that is very unfair.

As a mother, and I know that the member is very proud to be a mother, I go out grocery shopping, and people do not have to be vaccinated there. Those are different things that we need to think about. We need to be safe, but we need to work, and we need be accountable. After 73 hours of filibuster, I do not think we are getting the work done this way. I am hoping the member can answer why it is safe to go grocery shopping but not to work here.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in fact, what I am arguing is that I would like to ensure that all 338 members can work all of the time. If, when I go grocery shopping, as the member pointed out, with others who are perhaps not vaccinated, and my COVID alert app tells me I have been in contact with COVID, I should be allowed to vote. However, without passing the motion that is currently before this chamber, that is not a possibility.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, let us be clear. If the system proposed by the Liberals and, incidentally, the NDP, were a good one where everything worked perfectly, we would not be opposing it.

Unfortunately, it has had a negative impact on my work. There were countless technical problems in committee and, once again, it was the francophones who paid the price. I find it unfortunate that my francophone colleagues in the NDP and the Liberal Party are not making an effort to defend the French language.

We wasted time in committee. In a hybrid Parliament, I could not have discussions in the hallway like I did earlier, when I explained my point of view to the leader of the NDP in the lobby. Right now, this way of doing things is having a negative impact on our work. I would agree to this proposal if I could be sure my work would not suffer, but that is not the case.

Does my hon. colleague think that the right thing to do is to allow our work to suffer the consequences of the Liberal Party's proposal?

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague. I believe that he is asking a very important issue about the functioning of our hybrid system.

Of course, in our last mandate, we were all in virtual mode. Personally, I hope that there will be more than 300 members, even 338, in the House. However, I would like to make one thing clear.

If someone cannot be in the House because they have symptoms or were in contact with someone with COVID-19, they must be able to continue carrying out their parliamentary duties and to vote. It is very important that we ensure they can do so.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Outremont for her intervention and speech. I am still a little surprised to see the Bloc Québécois joining hands with the Conservative Party.

It seems to me that by default the majority of members should be in the House to do their job. However, why not keep this option of a hybrid Parliament?

People could work from home, as we have for a year and a half. We adapted, society adapted. There is now a fourth wave in Quebec; there were 900 new cases yesterday and more than 5 deaths. We must continue to be prudent and thus keep this option.

What is my colleague's explanation? Why are the Bloc Québécois members rejecting this option?

If we must help interpreters with the French fact, the Bloc members need only propose that more resources be allocated to interpretation services.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have found common ground with my colleague from Rosemont—La Petite‑Patrie.

I commend the Bloc's proposal to perhaps find more resources for the interpreters to ensure that everyone can understand and hear each other in both official languages.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable.