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Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was finance.

Last in Parliament September 2007, as Bloc MP for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot (Québec)

Won his last election, in 2006, with 56% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Tax Evasion October 3rd, 1996

Mr. Speaker, I see the minister is in a co-operative mood today. If I have understood correctly-and we will see in the bill that will be introduced-he intends to require firm monetary commitments, real binding commitments. That is what we have been asking him to do since the beginning, so we are pleased today that he has just now given us at least part of an answer.

Since he is in a co-operative mood, could he respond to other requests from the official opposition concerning the case of interest to us here? First of all, contrary to what he said yesterday in his ministerial statement, can he limit the use of the TCAs, taxable Canadian assets, solely to non-residents? Second- something he has not wanted to do from the start-could he demand that there be a complete investigation of the 1991 case, which is still somewhat unclear, and which is still an outrageous scandal for Canadian taxpayers?

Tax Evasion October 3rd, 1996

Mr. Speaker, the usual practice at this time, when assets are being transferred and we want to make sure that the trustee does not evade taxes, is that a notice of quit claim is required. That is the only guarantee we require at present, and it has no value in international law and tax conventions. That is the reality.

Yesterday, contrary to what he has claimed, the Minister of Finance did not close up the tax loophole for family trusts. On the contrary, he announced that the interpretation of December 23, 1991, which allowed the tax-free transfer to the United States of a two billion dollar trust will, in future, be government policy for all of the assets of millionaires and billionaires.

Will the minister confirm that, by extending the concept of taxable Canadian assets to Canadian residents, as he did yesterday in his ministerial statement, he has given his blessing to the scandal of 1991, which now becomes the basis of his taxation policy?

Tax System October 2nd, 1996

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I wish to convey my sincerest sympathy to Mr. Bourassa's family.

In his statement, the Minister of Finance confirmed that the Liberal government helps some people to avoid paying taxes. He confirmed that he has done nothing to end the family trust scandal in which $2 billion in assets was transferred to the U.S. without a penny in tax being collected.

Should we be surprised? Since the beginning of this affair, the behaviour of the Liberal members on the finance committee has been unworthy of parliamentarians. They tried to undermine the credibility of the auditor general.

According to the minister's statement, Canadians must have confidence in the tax system. They are entitled to demand that everyone pay his or her fair share.

On behalf of all the taxpayers in Quebec and Canada, I ask the Liberal government to shed light on this scandal and plug the tax loophole, instead of throwing the borders wide open as they are now doing.

If the minister truly wants, as he claims in his ministerial declaration, to re-establish confidence in the fiscal system, he must shed light on the scandal of December 1991 which permitted a family trust of $2 billion to be transferred tax free in the United States. He must demonstrate to Canadians that they can have confidence in the system. With the scandal and the complicity of the government, the proof must be given.

Unemployment Insurance October 1st, 1996

Mr. Speaker, when the Liberal government came to power, it deliberately increased unemployment insurance premiums. It was the first thing it did as far as economic policy was concerned.

We are accused of not asking a whole lot of questions about jobs. I accuse the government of never having an answer on the subject. The Minister of Finance is more concerned about his millionaires than about the unemployed.

Here is my question, and I expect a reply. Does the minister realize that by wanting to accumulate a surplus of $15 billion in the unemployment insurance fund and by refusing to reduce premiums for employers and employees, he has deliberately ordered a tax of $15 billion on employment?

Unemployment Insurance October 1st, 1996

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance said in his budget speech that when new and significant savings were realized with respect to unemployment insurance, it would be possible to reduce premiums even further, and he would make sure that this happened. Well, this morning we are told that the minister is seriously considering raising the unemployment insurance surplus to $15 billion.

My question is directed to the Minister of Finance. Why does the minister want to accumulate a surplus of $15 billion in the unemployment insurance fund instead of reducing premiums, when he himself said that a reduction of seven cents would create 40,000 jobs over two years and that he would be able to reduce this payroll tax to a significant extent?

Supply September 26th, 1996

Mr. Speaker, basically, I have four points to make. I think that with time and with the wearing effect of politics, the hon. member for Willowdale, who is chairman of the finance committee, became a misinformation expert.

He said that they took the issue seriously and that the auditor general is one of the most respected institutions, but he does not believe his own words. I say that because when the auditor general appeared before the committee, the member for Willowdale, with the complicity of senior civil servants who took part in the 1991 advanced ruling allowing the transfer of $2 billion outside of Canada tax free, tried for an hour and a half to give him hell, catch him off guard and undermine his credibility.

That continued when the liberal majority report produced under the direction of the chairman of the finance committee was made public. What do we find in that report? Two things. A major part of it continued the attack on the reputation of the auditor general. He was accused of violating confidentiality rules when the leak, mentioned in the Globe and Mail a few days after the auditor general made the scandal public, was traced back to Revenue Canada. Maybe there are civil servants who have had enough of the establishment and the complicity between the decision-makers responsible for those advanced rulings and the wealthy Canadian families. I think that is the truth of the matter. The report denigrated the auditor general.

One other example of misinformation is the statement by the chairman of the finance committee, the hon. member for Willowdale, that the Liberal proposals go farther than those of the Bloc. Sure they go farther in the sense that they open wide the doors to massive capital transfers for Canadian millionaires and billionaires. They certainly do go farther.

We are saying that this loophole must be closed. We must put an end to twisted interpretations, such as the ones we got from the senior officials who made this shameful decision in 1991 without doing a technical analysis of the Income Tax Act and without taking the time to write the minutes of the numerous meetings they had for one week until December 23, 1991.

As for the experts, here is another thing that goes against the credibility of the chairman of the finance committee. He is the one who invited these experts. Six of the experts that were at that table were invited by him.

These experts have no credibility whatsoever, as far as I am concerned. Do you know why? Because they come from the very tax consulting firms which help rich Canadian families transfer their money out of the country. On the word of these six experts chosen by the chairman, chosen by the establishment of the Liberal Party of Canada, the Liberal majority report says there is no problem, there are no capital transfers.

Finally, when the member for Willowdale and chairman of the finance committee says that the financial community is worried, I can understand why because, for the first time in a very long time, the auditor general and the official opposition have uncovered a scandal, a conspiracy that has been going on for decades between the deputy ministers, the assistant deputy ministers and the senior officials responsible for advance rulings and the rich Canadian families who want to take money out of the country. That was the concern of the financial community.

I will never forget a certain Mr. Goodman, a tax expert invited by the Liberal Party of Canada, by the chairman of the finance committee, who said: "The auditor general should have never informed Canadians of these kinds of things. They are far too complex".

What that expert was saying really is that, when dealing with complex issues, it is better that the public be kept in the dark. When these kinds of scandals occur, they have to be hidden. Even the auditor general, who is accountable to Parliament, to the people, and who is the watchdog of our public finances, should have kept his mouth shut because it was outside his mandate. That is the reality of the situation.

It bothers me when I hear remarks like the ones made by the chairman of the finance committee, which I think are misleading and are the reason why this man is losing even more credibility not only with his own committee members, but also with Canadians. The picture painted by the chairman of the finance committee is totally contrary to the facts.

Supply September 26th, 1996

Mr. Speaker, there is a scandal, namely the tax-free transfer of $2 billion abroad, when this kind of thing should not have been done. There have been other such transfers since then, and do you know why? Because the Deputy Minister of National Revenue said so when he appeared before the finance committee. He said that the decision on the first $2 billion may have led to other transfers.

The other point is, you are saying we want to score political points, you will see that the points scored will not be not political. The coalition we are setting up includes organizations from across Canada that are very interested in letting the government know they disagree with this. As you will see, this coalition is apolitical and the Liberals in each of their ridings will feel the heat.

Supply September 26th, 1996

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I was saying. The hon. member, my Liberal colleague, did not read the proceedings of the finance committee, did not read the testimony of the people who appeared before the committee, most of all did not read the auditor general's report and did not read the report of the Liberal majority in the finance committee.

There is a scandal because the economy of the legislation concerning taxable Canadian property-it sounds technical, but that is the objective-the economy of the legislation said this concept, which allowed the transfer of some public corporation assets elsewhere in the world, free of tax, was to be applied only to foreign residents, not to Canadian residents.

The concept of TCA, of taxable Canadian assets, was applied to a Canadian family that transferred $2 billion outside the country and did not pay a cent in taxes. When you talk about the proceedings and the experts who were consulted, as I was mentioning earlier, the six experts your friends claim to be are people who represent rich Canadian families and who allow them to export capital.

I will confront you with 15 experts who have no links with rich Canadian families, academic tax experts, people who know their business, and they will tell you quite the opposite. The auditor general did his job, his interpretation of tax legislation is correct, and it is Revenue Canada's interpretation that is wrong.

The proof of the matter is that Revenue Canada issued a notice in 1985 that said that, in a case such as this one, the TCA, transfers of capital outside the country free of tax, could not apply to Canadian residents. And what is rather strange, in 1991, within a week, during the Christmas holidays, while everyone was celebrating, Revenue Canada's decision was changed following discussions with representatives of rich Canadian families. That is a scandal.

The other scandal is the attitude of the government, of Liberal representatives who, instead of shedding light on this and closing the borders to this flight of rich families' capital, open them wide to favour their friends.

Supply September 26th, 1996

Mr. Speaker, when they talk about reason, when they say that the government behaved reasonably, I must say it is certainly not the case in this instance. Since the very beginning, it is remarkable how many steps, how many measures the government has taken to cover up, to conceal the situation.

Even in the public accounts committee, of which my colleague is a member, they used every trick in the book; motions were submitted, even a motion saying that light would be shed on this issue in the fall was defeated by the Liberals. It takes some nerve to do that. Every time my colleague, the member for Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans and Chairman of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, tried to raise the issue, he was turned down. They used the finance committee's analysis as an excuse to say: "Finance is working on it. Once they have done their job, we will see".

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts has the authority to act almost as a royal commission of inquiry. Until now, I have not sensed a willingness, on the part of the Liberals, to get to the bottom of this issue. On the contrary; the finance committee report, a Liberal majority report, and even the statements made over the last two weeks by the Prime Minister and the finance minister, show clearly that they want to cover up, and not shed light on the issue.

Not only will they not shed any light, but they announced, in the Liberal majority report which has now been recognized as the government's position on the issue, that what was done in 1991, that misinterpretation of the tax legislation, will now become the general rule. From now on, this is how Revenue Canada will officially interpret the tax provisions.

I want to ask Canadians to consider the so-called reasonable attitude of the government. It is not a reasonable but a outrageous attitude. These people practice patronage. I hope that Canadians will see it some day. I hope that those Canadians that are now Liberal supporters will raise the question in their ridings and ask their members of Parliament for an explanation.

Sometimes I look at Liberal members and I wonder if they read the reports of the committees and of their government. Sometimes I hear things and wonder if I have not landed on another planet. I feel they know nothing about the government's positions and their implications. They just go along with everything.

They go along, they applaud, they smile and say: "My my, we are good". They are in fact shooting themselves in the foot.

They are here to represent their constituents but instead, they applaud the government's positions when in fact that government is only protecting a handful of rich friends of the party. That is not normal. I hope they will wake up eventually because this is no way to behave in politics. It is certainly not our way. And it is most unfortunate.

Supply September 26th, 1996

Mr. Speaker, I apologize. I sometimes have trouble controlling my emotions, especially when deeply hurt by the comments made by some of our colleagues.

I am happy to rise today to speak to a matter I care deeply about, namely the scandal condemned by the auditor general on May 7, whereby a rich Canadian family managed, in December 1991, to transfer a $2 billion family trust fund to the U.S. without paying a penny in tax on the capital gains from these assets.

This rich family was able to transfer its assets tax free because of a so-called advance ruling by Revenue Canada. It is important to understand what an advance ruling is. Wealthy taxpayers-and it is essentially they who are involved financial operations of this nature and this magnitude-can ask Revenue Canada for an advance ruling on an interpretation of the Income Tax Act in order to protect secure a financial transaction or their own interpretation of the Income Tax Act.

This advance ruling, which was made on December 23, 1991, when everyone was busy partying, was based on a distorted analysis out of touch with the realities of tax laws by senior officials from the revenue and finance departments.

Several unusual facts relating to this issue lead us to believe that the government has some things to hide, that it does not want to shed light on this episode. Indeed, even though the decision was made under the previous Conservative government, it may be that friends of the Liberal Party of Canada, major contributors to the Liberals' election fund, very rich and influential people who gravitate around the centres of power, such as the offices of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance, have had some influence, with the result that, today, the government wants to hide things.

The first unusual fact is that senior officials from the revenue and finance departments had several meetings before issuing this ruling. During those meetings, they leaned on one side or the other. First, they said that the family could not transfer to the United States these assets of $2 billion tax free. However, in the end, on December 23, after numerous representations had been made by the tax experts representing the rich family involved, Revenue Canada issued an advance ruling allowing this scandal to take place.

Oddly enough, there are no minutes of these meetings, no report, no written account of the arguments put forth by the two sides before such a distorted interpretation of the tax provisions was made.

The second unusual fact is that, to this day, the ruling, which may have cost hundreds of millions of dollars to Quebec and Canadian taxpayers, is not supported by any technical analysis. There is no technical document.

When it wants $50 from middle and low income taxpayers, Revenue Canada does not beat around the bush. It issues a notice and sends a long letter explaining that an amount of $50 is due and payable. However, when hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake, no technical document is to be found.

The third unusual fact is that, for almost a week, meetings took place from morning until evening. On December 23, during the holiday season, while everyone was at home relaxing and celebrating Christmas and the New Year, some public servants were at work. The result was that, on that day, Canadian taxpayers' goose was cooked. Quebec and Canadian taxpayers are the ones who, through their taxes, must pay the hundreds of millions that were not paid by the family that transferred $2 billion to the United States.

Two days before Christmas, a family in Canada had additional reasons to celebrate, following Revenue Canada's ruling. However, all the other Canadian families would, had they known about this-because the government kept it a secret-have been saddened by the shameless attitude of senior public servants, who probably acted with the complicity of those in office at the time.

Another strange thing: while all advance rulings by Revenue Canada are normally made public, available to everyone, it took until last March 21, five whole years, for this advance ruling delivered in December 1991 to be made public and for the auditor general, on the basis of this very information, to bring to the public's attention this two billion dollar scandal. Five years.

Do you know what this means? It means that Revenue Canada had things to hide, because it is truly incredible that all these advance rulings were made public over the last five years with one exception. Oddly enough, it was the most important one. Oddly enough, it was the one that is costing Canadian taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars. It is definitely rather strange.

This implies as well that for five years a small group of people knew, but that the bulk of the public did not. What is the word for this? In the United States, they would be described as insiders, people who were able to profit from their knowledge of the existence of the December 1991 advance ruling, of the existence of an erroneous interpretation, but one given by Revenue Canada regarding certain tax provisions from which others in their limited little group could have profited.

It means that the tax experts representing the very rich Canadian family that transferred its two billion dollars to the United States had a secret, a golden piece of information that they could sell all over the place to other rich Canadian families, because let us not forget that this 1991 ruling served as a precedent.

It means that, for five years, other rich families in Canada were able to profit from this advance ruling, in order to do exactly the same thing as in the case that concerns us, which is to not pay a cent of tax, and have the rest of Canadian taxpayers compensate for the fact that they were able to transfer billions out of the country.

Another strange thing in all this is the attitude of government representatives. When the auditor general made this case public last May, he did so in connection with the work of the House of Commons public accounts committee.

The public accounts committee is the committee that looks at all the recommendations, as it will today with the auditor general's new recommendations, and the public accounts committee examines all the chapters in the auditor general's report, analyzes each of the recommendations, and calls witnesses, as well as looking into the various scandals uncovered by the auditor general, involving spending or the numerous examples of waste in the departments, for instance, or situations such as those that concern us today-a misinterpretation of the tax act. This is the mandate of the auditor general.

As for the information made public by the auditor general, you have seen the performance before the public accounts committee by the Liberal representatives, including the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi. You have seen them tearing out their hair in front of the cameras, sending out press releases about how they were going to get to the bottom of the circumstances surrounding this advance ruling, the circumstances which made it possible to avoid taxes because of a loophole in the Income Tax Act.

Two days later, the hon. member was nowhere to be found. The story was that he had been called back to his riding on a very urgent matter, and could not get back until the next week. Finally, he was absent for two weeks. He could not be reached. And why? Because he had received an order from higher up. He had been given orders from higher up to button his lip, because some people linked to the Liberal Party, perhaps even to the PMO or the office of the finance minister, had, or might have, profited directly or indirectly from this ruling. So he was told to keep quiet.

After that, everything went haywire. The Minister of Finance announced he was transferring the case of the two billion dollar trust to the finance committee, so that such an ambiguous situation-as he referred to it- would not be repeated in future. He called it an ambiguity in the tax law, whereas it is not; it is clear that government employees were not entitled to make the interpretation they did.

By transferring the matter to the finance committee, the Minister of Finance was merely clouding the issue. And why? Because the finance committee is not mandated to cast light on a specific case, whereas the mandate of the public accounts committee is to carry out a thorough investigation, to virtually convert itself into a royal commission of inquiry. As for the finance committee, it is not concerned with the day to day administration of tax policy, as the public accounts committee is. Nor does it investigate cases raised by the auditor general. Its focus is on the changes in taxation policy.

By transferring the case to the finance committee, the finance minister certainly was aware-having been an MP and the Minister of Finance long enough-that it would not examine the specific case from 1991, but would make recommendations on future changes to policy.

When it did get to the finance committee, the Liberals' attitude was really scandalous. First, the chairman of the finance committee. When the auditor general appeared before the committee, for more than an hour and a half he scolded the auditor general, was derisive and tried to undermine his credibility by taking the floor. This is unheard of in a committee of the House of Commons: a chairman who decides to take the floor for an hour and a half and tell off the auditor general.

The auditor general, and it is important for taxpayers to realize this, is one of the most venerable institutions of this Parliament. The auditor general is the watchdog of the public purse. He is accountable to Parliament, not to the Liberal Party of Canada.

He judges the performance of managers, their good and, especially, their bad decisions, and reports to Parliament. In other words, he is accountable to the people. He monitors public finances and the interpretation of tax laws in the best interests of the

taxpayers of this country. And the only thing the government side did was undermine the credibility of the auditor general.

Recently, this happened again. The report of the Liberal majority on the finance committee, the very report ordered by the Minister of Finance, said, more or less: "The auditor general had no mandate to do what he did". However, he did have a mandate to do what he did and he had done so many times. He has examined the interpretation of tax laws at least seven times in ten years.

When the Liberals were in the opposition, they used the cases of erroneous interpretation of the Income Tax Act by senior officials that were raised by the auditor general. Today, they condemn him. They say the auditor general has no mandate.

Second, they said he had no credibility. That is a serious charge. The auditor general watches over the interests of all taxpayers. He is accountable to Parliament and makes departments, ministers and senior officials give an account of themselves, but they say his analysis is not credible. What is their basis for saying so? They rely on the opinion of six experts who appeared this summer before the finance committee. I was there, and six out of eight experts spoke out against the auditor general.

Do you know why? Because the six of them, all of them, were tax experts representing wealthy canadian families and helping those families to take millions if not billions of dollars out of Canada in order to avoid paying a cent of income tax on these amounts. Now, has anyone ever seen people who are judge and jury shoot themselves in the foot? Of course not, it would make no sense. But the Liberals, pursuing their saga and their objective, which is to hide the inside information in this matter, relied on these experts.

There is more. Instead of closing the gates and saying that this sort of wrong interpretation would no longer be tolerated, they said that this distorted, wrong and cynical interpretation made by Revenue Canada would become the rule. The borders will be opened. Once the government accepts the report of the Liberal majority, wealthy Canadian families will be able to do as they please. They will be able to transfer millions and billions of dollars without being bothered in any way by Revenue Canada. Mr. Speaker, just try to take $ 2,000 out of Canada and open an account in a foreign country to see if Revenue Canada will allow you to do it. Just try.

The attitude of the Liberals in this matter is bewildering but suggests that the government probably has many things to hide.

As I said earlier this week in this House, if we scratch the blue of the decision taken by the Conservatives in 1991, we will soon find some red underneath. In other words, some influential people in the Liberal Party benefited from this decision. Furthermore, the fact that the standing committee on public accounts cannot go into this matter as thoroughly as it would like to and call witnesses, namely senior officials and even politicians who were involved in this decision in 1991, and even tax experts who were around at the time, suggests that the government is trying to cloud the issue and hide things.

The government has something to hide. There might be people in the Prime Minister's office or in the finance minister's office who do not want this thing to become public knowledge, but it is the Canadian taxpayer who is paying for it, and probably for other cases since, as I mentioned before, and this is very significant, the 1991 case has set a precedent for others. As soon as this kind of advance ruling is handed down, and insiders get wind of it, and we are dealing with insiders here and, by the way, insider trading is an indictable offence in the United States, they may use it to other people's advantage. They might have used it to benefit their clients if they worked for tax consultants, for example.

As a result of this ruling, astronomical sums of money are being transferred abroad without any interference from Revenue Canada. In this case as in others that might have occurred, the government must come to its senses and protect the interests of all taxpayers, not only those who are millionaires or billionaires.

I would like to take this opportunity to announce to the House that the official opposition is currently working to create a vast coalition coast to coast. This coalition will be constituted of unions, elderly people organizations, student organizations, groups devoted to the well-being of underprivileged people, and Canadian citizens who are fed up with the attitude of the federal government on this issue. We hope this vast coalition will bring some sense to the government.

In the meantime, let us hope that it will see the light, it is in the best interest of all Quebecers and Canadians. It is outrageous for the government to attempt to cover up this scandal, hiding behind false arguments, instead of getting to the bottom of it.

It is kicking a big fuss, trying all kinds of tricks in the public accounts committee or the finance committee to make sure that the truth will never be known.

I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate, on behalf of Quebecers and Canadians, our trust in the institution of the auditor general and the work Mr. Desautels did on this issue and many others.

If there is an auditor who deserves the highest respect for his work and his integrity, and who has in fact been supported by a former auditor general, Mr. Kenneth Dye, it is Mr. Desautels,

whom, I believe deserves to be applauded for his work instead of having his reputation systematically tarnished by an unscrupulous government.