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Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was billion.

Last in Parliament April 1997, as Reform MP for Capilano—Howe Sound (B.C.)

Won his last election, in 1993, with 42% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act May 10th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I take this opportunity to put some perspective on the controversy. I will end with a demand for greater openness in the process of setting the compensation for members of Parliament.

In economics, one of the most difficult problems we have is to explain the relative wages of people in different occupations. Why does a dishwasher earn typically only the minimum wage? Why do miners earn considerably more than that? What should be the right pay for teachers, nurses, doctors, lawyers, and MPs? Who knows?

In economics we have some answers. One side explains that generally compensation for workers is higher where greater skill and training are required. People who go to occupations that require only high school graduation will typically get a lower level of pay than those who had to graduate from university. Certainly those in graduate and medical school occupations make more than those with lower educations. I think this is a widely accepted principle. There is no problem with fairness. That is generally accepted in society.

Also accepted in society, and the data show that this can be verified, is that the riskier a job, risks like illness and accident, the higher should be the pay. The greater the discomfort, if you have to work in the middle of the night or in a dirty environment, then pay tends to be higher than when it is in a pleasant environment.

Generally these elements are verified by empirical studies. Yet even at a time when there was no government to appeal to there were differences in wages, which could not be explained by these factors alone. Economists know a structure of wages of different-

Income Tax Act May 5th, 1995

The number is $52,000 and they contribute 50 per cent.

The Economy May 5th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I do not believe this slowdown was in any of the models. It had never been put into the forecast about economic growth in the future. It comes as a total surprise.

The coming economic slowdown will cause higher unemployment. This will surely cause members of the Liberal cabinet and caucus to increase their resistance to spending cuts, cuts which they could not get themselves to approve during last year's boom.

Given the likely political resistance to essential spending cuts, will the minister support Reform's proposed balanced budget legislation which has been used in many other jurisdictions to protect taxpayers from shortsighted and selfish actions of politicians?

The Economy May 5th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, we should not yet panic about the unfortunate but strong and distinct signs of economic slowdown. However, we should be prepared for it to continue since Canada's record high real interest rates are sure to keep consumers from buying cars, homes and other durables.

My question for the Minister of Finance is how much economic slowdown and resultant reduced tax revenues can Canada take before the contingency reserve in his budget is exhausted and he will miss the deficit target he has vowed to meet?

Taxpayers Protection Act May 4th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, nations around the world recognize that to preserve civil liberties there must be limits on governmental powers, including those of spending and deficits.

A growing number of provincial governments have balanced budget laws. We Reformers now urge the application of similar restraints at the federal level. We are proposing the adoption of a

taxpayers protection act which compels future governments to balance the budget every year.

The act will have sharp teeth. Members of any government that runs a deficit would face pay cuts of up to 30 per cent and a 75 per cent majority of Parliament would be required to override the provisions.

Canadians have long supported limits that prevent a governmental attack on individual freedoms. It is now time to limit government attacks on individual wallets. This is why we are proposing a taxpayers protection act as an economic bill of rights for beleaguered Canadian taxpayers.

Supply April 27th, 1995

My leader had not had the opportunity to hear what I had to say when he made this remark. It takes time for these ideas to spread.

I think it would be very much in the interest of Canada if members from the other side opened their minds just a little bit. There might be ideas out there that they have not thought of that would do exactly the same thing they want to do, except it would save the system at the same time.

Let me read something. Some critics claim that these medical service accounts that have been experimented with in the United States will encourage people to avoid preventive care. Yet experience shows that the reverse is true.

I wonder if the member would please listen.

Medical service accounts make money available immediately when the medical need exists. This allows people to make purchases they might not make if they had a traditional deductible requiring an immediate out of pocket payment. Therefore his objection to this scheme is simply incorrect. We would preserve exactly what we have now. It is not a traditional deductible system.

On the other hand, it is quite clear that I am prepared to continue to support a system which has no co-insurance and no deductibles if ways can be found to finance it.

Supply April 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for this silly remark.

We are talking about something that has potential, regardless of what my leader said a year ago. I do not care. I present this as my personal opinion. Every time I go on a radio program or any time I present it to a general audience, they ask why we are not doing this. It is because of silly remarks of the sort I just heard.

Supply April 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, as a professional economist before coming to Ottawa I had taken some interest in the economics of health care. In 1992, I published two editorials on the subject in the Medical Post .

Today I would like to share the most important insights about the problem of health care I have gained from these studies and suggest some policy initiatives based on them. These ideas are my own and not necessarily those of the Reform Party.

I believe the public provision of health care through the present Canadian system is bedevilled by a fundamental problem which is due to the absence of a deductible and of co-insurance. This problem is amenable to relatively easy solutions once political and ideological rhetoric is put aside.

Of course, the system has other problems. There are no patent solutions. Some of these problems involve fundamental issues of technology, incentives, values, ethics and morality. I will not discuss these today.

I would like to remind everyone that the Canada Health Act has created a gigantic system of insurance. Every Canadian contributes premiums through general taxes. Benefits are provided to anyone without the need to pay financial deductibles and co-insurance. As everyone knows, our system has produced a wonderful world in which every taxpaying Canadian is eligible to receive free of any charge general medical care, specialized services and hospitalization. Congratulations Canada.

In my view, one of the most important reasons for the financial problems which undoubtedly now are haunting our system stem from the absence of deductibles and co-insurance. I have reached this conclusion because the absence of restraint on demand stemming from this completely costless service has resulted in very large increases in demand. This is not a universally accepted proposition. Therefore, I would like to illustrate its validity by making reference to two historic experiments of public insurance systems that failed because of the absence of deductibles and co-insurance.

The first involves the government automobile insurance monopoly introduced by the NDP government in British Columbia in 1972. It started with great fanfare, having no deductibles at all on any repairs on cars, on the grounds that even small scratches and dents on cars ultimately lead to more serious problems. Therefore, it was argued it was wise to encourage repairs of such damage at no cost since some shortsighted owners might be discouraged from having the work done by a deductible of $50 or $100 or whatever it might be. The rest is history. The policy was cancelled by that same caring, foresighted NDP government because it was simply too costly.

The second experiment involved the British government, which in the early days of the public health scheme argued that no one in Britain should suffer because he or she did not have the money to pay for medication. I have heard the same arguments here about access to health care. I wonder why the rhetoric from members of the Liberal Party has not also extended to medication. After all, some people are suffering because they do not get all the medication they want just like that. They may have to spend some money.

The universally free dispensing of medication was ended after only a short time. Costs had become much higher than had been anticipated by a study of demand, a study which had been conducted under conditions when people paid for their medication. Studies have shown that if the cost is free it is easier to go back to the pharmacy to get medication rather than look for it in the medicine cabinet. People ended up with huge stocks of medication which were finally flushed down the toilet at an extremely high cost to society.

These two examples are instructive for Canadian medicare. The policy of having no deductibles or co-insurance in Canadian health care was motivated by the noblest of intentions, just like they were in the case of automobile insurance and free medication in England.

We need to take care of the needs of the most poor in society and we must prevent serious problems which might develop if small ones are neglected. The two experiments were terminated because of the universal law of demand. The price was too low and demand became too high. I believe that what we are seeing after 20 years of operation in Canada is exactly the same situation. That is one of the main reasons why the Canadian health care system is in such financial trouble.

There is a fairly straightforward solution: introduce user fees. However, there is a strong resistance in Canada to the use of this instrument.

We heard them just a few minutes ago. The arguments are the traditional ones: care about access for those who cannot afford it, and those who, even if they can afford it, are stupid enough to let illnesses go and the consequences will be more costly than if they had taken care quickly of the illness symptoms at the beginning.

Some even argue, somewhat more sophisticatedly, that the inconvenience of visits to physicians and the risk associated with all medical procedures represent a strong deductible and co-insurance. Others argue that the deterrent effect of such measures is small and not very cost effective. This is the position taken by my colleague at the university of British Columbia, Bob Evans, a professor of health economics, one of the most highly respected and best known economists in Canada. I disagree with him.

The arguments against deductibles and co-insurance involve empirical judgment on the way in which these incentives are introduced. I would now like to propose and outline briefly a scheme for the introduction of co-insurance and deductibles, which I have published in the Medical Post . It can be summarized quickly as follows.

Every doctor visit or treatment by a Canadian elicits a government notification of the cost involved. One gets a little postcard saying that your visit on such and such a day cost society and you $30. At the end of every tax year, the value of the medical services consumed is added as income when we file our income tax.

Think about what this would do. The poor would have access. Universality of access would be preserved. In the end, the poor would not pay anything. One of the most cherished, basic,

fundamental characteristics of our system would be preserved, one I think is worth preserving. Of course, the better off who have income tax to pay would as a result pay a share of the cost they have incurred on society.

Now I must state something that immediately comes up whenever I discuss this in a public forum. Of course there would have to be a ceiling to the amount of money that individuals would have to add to their income tax as income and on which they pay taxes. I do not even want to venture what it is, but maybe nobody would have to pay more than 5 per cent or 10 per cent of their income.

One of the most important things that every health care system must present is protection against the catastrophic consequences of serious illnesses. That could be preserved and will be preserved by the proposal I have just outlined.

One of the biggest problems I have is with the idea that these incentives of people paying their own money, in a way, having a deductible and co-insurance, would not work. Just recently I received some information about experimentations that are going on in the rest of the world. I would like to share these ideas with members.

I found the following. Most health economists agree that the primary reason why health care costs are rising is that the money we are spending in the medical marketplace is usually someone else's. More than a decade ago, the Rand corporation discovered that when people are spending their own money on health care, they spend 30 per cent less, with no adverse effect on their health.

Now it turns out that in the United States some employers are experimenting in putting this principle to work. Please do not be turned off by the idea that I have just mentioned that this is taking place in the United States.

Let me set the stage. Here are companies whose names I will read off that have for their employees systems of health care that are superior to that available to every Canadian. They have health insurance from the first dollar. They have catastrophe insurance. They are employed. They are very well taken care of.

Here is the experiment: Forbes magazine pays each employee $2 for every $1 medical claim they do not incur up to a maximum of $1,000 a year. For every time they look at what it costs to go to the doctor and they decide not to go during the year, they can earn as much as $1,000 extra income. Forbes' health costs fell 17 per cent in 1992 and 12 per cent in 1993.

Another example: Dominion Resources, a utility holding company, deposits $1,620 a year into a bank account for the 80 per cent of employees who choose a $3,000 deductible rather than a lower one. The result is the company has experienced no premium increase since 1989, while employers face annual increases of 13 per cent.

Another example: Golden Rule Insurance Company deposits $2,000 a year into a medical savings account for employees who choose a $3,000 family deductible fee. The result is in 1993, the first year of the plan, health costs were 40 per cent lower than they would otherwise have been.

Take the United Mine Workers, a union that is very concerned about the welfare of its members. Last year they had a health plan with first dollar coverage for most medical services. This year they accepted a plan with a $1,000 deductible. In return, each employee receives a $1,000 bonus at the beginning of the year and employees get to keep whatever they do not spend. As a result, the mine workers still have first dollar coverage plus all the catastrophe insurance coverage and all that, but now the first $1,000 they spend will be their own money rather than their employer's money.

These plans are popular with employees. They can save money in an amount directly related to their own effort. They are not deterred from seeking medical care by the traditional out of pocket deductible. They can usually use their medical savings to buy services not covered by traditional services, and they are usually not restricted to certain doctors, as they would be under a managed care plan.

We have here very strong evidence that deductible co-insurance works. It works in ways that satisfy the people who are involved.

Let me try in my own words to explain what are the fundamental benefits. These experiments have permitted individual employees to feel clearly and voluntarily that under a wide range of conditions they would have gone to the doctor if it cost them nothing, but when faced with the true cost of the doctor visit they preferred having the money instead.

It is important to note that under these medisave schemes that I have just described individuals retain the benefit of full protection against the consequences of serious illness. They are making these choices with their own money. We have just deleted the distortion the zero deductible and co-insurance system has introduced into the incentives of the individual. They are being misled by the system into believing that for them and society the cost of going to the doctor is zero. It is not.

As we can see, individuals like it if they are given the choice, the freedom to do so. They prefer it. And the system itself saves money. It is an opportunity that I believe we in Canada can also take advantage of. Of course there have to be modifications, because we want to preserve the current system of universality of access and all the other aspects we have just discussed.

Let me conclude by suggesting that these well documented experiences provide strong support for the effectiveness of introducing deductibles and co-insurance into the Canadian health care system through the tax system I just sketched. It could be modified and create more positive incentives by giving every Canadian a $1,000 tax offset against which the cost of medical services would be deducted. I think that very quickly after such a system is introduced people would know about it and they would pay attention to these things.

However, I believe these are details. I want to add to the current debate over the possible reform of the health care system the idea of using deductibles and co-insurance for routine medical services, administered through the tax system, while the system continues to provide universality of access and protection against catastrophic health costs.

Let me repeat: It is possible that this scheme-which not only I have proposed in the Medical Post editorial, but which has been proposed by the Fraser Institute competition for the reduction of the cost of government and has been proposed by other doctors who wrote to me after my publication-may very well be a way in which Canada can have all the wonderful qualities of our system we now have and create incentives for greater efficiency and prevent the demise of the system, which otherwise might collapse under the threat of excessive financial costs.

Supply April 27th, 1995

How do you know that?

Income Tax Act April 25th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to respond to those ideas. Clearly, I did not have enough time to go into all the advantages.

I have attended several conferences on the subject of the underground economy. The high marginal tax rate certainly has an effect on it, but the emphasis recently has been on the role of the GST. Clearly, they interact, but it would help.

On the other hand, I have been quite convinced by evidence that was educed about the size of the underground economy and especially by some simulations made by the Ministry of Finance. It turns out that while it looks like it is very big, it really probably is no more than about 5 per cent of national income. However, this is not the time to discuss that. Maybe we could do it some other time.

On larger pools of capital, I can give a personal view, which is not a Reform Party position. Long before I was a member of Parliament I used the idea in my lectures that if I were in charge I would lower the capital gains rate and the rate on corporations in Canada to 5 per cent and I would make Canada the Switzerland of North America. I have speculated that probably we could have had so much capital flowing in, especially during the period of the cold war, when we were under the protection of the Americans, that the revenue raised at 5 per cent would have been grater than the revenue we raise at our high rates at the moment. I think Americans are thinking about that as well. I am sure that if the Americans are going to lower their tax rate on corporations and we do not follow we will have exactly the opposite problem of what the hon. member is talking about.

The issue in a strictly economic seminar is an oversimplification, in a way, in today's world of integrated capital markets. Money is flowing in at essentially a risk adjusted rate where we can borrow as much as we want to. Our problem is that we are not saving enough.

To the extent that the lower tax rates on income would lower the incentive to consume and would encourage savings, we would probably lower the interest rate marginally. However, that would not be the main effect. Nevertheless, I appreciate that the member has called my attention to the idea that there is this effect on capital markets.

Finally, he noted that productivity would increase. Indeed, most people agree that the high marginal tax rates on income and on capital have led to distortions in the decisions of individuals in the allocation of their time between effort and work, between savings and investment, which overall have resulted in a lowering of productivity. It is therefore agreed widely about the direction in which the incentives would go by lowering the marginal tax rates. There is little doubt about this encouraging more work, discouraging leisure, encouraging more savings and discouraging consumption. That would be all to the good.

The problem is that econometric estimates of those effects are extremely difficult. Nobody really has been able to prove that there would be such a very large effort. I think the conclusion has been that the main effect of the high marginal tax rates on income and capital in the past has been to change the allocation of resources, which leads to distortions, which are essentially costly to society.

Being a little bit cautious about this point does not mean that I reject the hon. member's suggestion. I think it should be considered as another plus of us studying and perhaps ultimately adopting a simplified, open, and cheap new flat tax system.