Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Good morning, colleagues.

As you know, there is a bell ringing now for a vote to take place in ten minutes. Under the Standing Orders, a committee is not permitted to sit during the taking of votes, unless the committee gives its unanimous consent. So I'm going to ask right now if the committee gives its unanimous consent for us to proceed with our hearing at this time. Is there unanimous consent?

No, there's not, so I must suspend the meeting until after the vote. It should take about 15 minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I call to order the eighth meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, concerning the study on the adopted motion regarding the Mulroney Airbus settlement.

I want to advise members that at 1 p.m., or earlier if appropriate, we will be suspending our meeting to go in camera to address related committee business, including the report from the Sergeant-at-Arms on the circumstances under which Mr. Schreiber first appeared before us without having consulted his documents first.

The second item is motions from members for which the required notice has been given.

Thirdly, there is the steering committee report on proposals for committee hearings during the Christmas adjournment of the House. There is a review of the preliminary witness list and instructions from members for the chair to start that process.

Finally, there are any other matters that may properly come before the committee.

I understand this room is booked for 1:30 for the Prime Minister. The room has to be prepared and swept, so we will be moving to Room 209 in the West Block.

We do need to have this meeting, colleagues, and I hope we will be able to deal with those issues promptly. So we will suspend by one o'clock, or earlier, if it appears we are ready to move on.

At our last meeting, the committee instructed me to call two witnesses from GCI, in addition to Mr. Schreiber. They are Mr. Gerry Doucet, who unfortunately is in hospital in Halifax; and Mr. Greg Alford, who was only located on Monday in Toronto. A telephone message for him was left by the clerk, but unfortunately there has been no return call. We will address this matter when we meet in camera.

Accordingly, our witness for today is Mr. Karlheinz Schreiber, who is accompanied again by his lawyer, Mr. Richard Auger.

Good morning, gentlemen.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

On a point of privilege, Mr. Chairman, I just want you to clarify the procedures today. You've indicated we're going to adjourn and go to in camera proceedings at one o'clock. We may have to go to the West Block. Some members have to be back at two o'clock, which is a challenge, so I'll just ask that you consider that.

The second issue is with respect to the ten-minute rule we established at the last meeting. I'm concerned about the time factor, Mr. Chairman. On this particular day, if we proceed with the ten-minute rule and each of the caucuses has ten minutes, it is conceivable the government would not get time to ask questions. So I'm assuming, sir, and this is what I want you to clarify, that we will revert to the usual rules of this committee with this type of examination.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you, Mr. Tilson.

As you know, that's not a point of privilege. We have already lost a fair bit of time.

To address your points, if it's the committee's will, we could stay in this room and adjourn this testimony a little early and just try to quickly handle our matters, if that's acceptable to the members, instead of going to Room 209. Or do the members...?

Let's see how it goes. We'll have to take a decision. The members seem to have mixed views on trying to cram in all of the things we must do in a very short period of time. As well, there may be questions for Mr. Schreiber right to the end of the meeting, and we don't want to pre-empt that important responsibility.

With regard to the ten-minute rule, Mr. Tilson, the committee unanimously accepted that motion. If the committee wishes to change the proceedings, I would note that a motion has not yet been made, but it could be made if you wish, and we'd take a vote on that immediately.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Chairman, excuse me. My assumption was, and this is why I asked the question, that this only applies when we're going for two-hour sessions of witnesses. If we're just going for one-hour sessions of witnesses, it will be physically impossible for the government to ask questions.

I'm assuming your interpretation is that in those types of situations, or in the situations where we have one hour per witness, we'll revert to the original rules.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you for your input.

We're going to move forward now, since there's no motion.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Well, I would move, Mr. Chairman, that for this particular day we revert to the original rules of seven minutes and five minutes for each caucus.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Does everyone understand the motion put by Mr. Tilson?

I would like to put the question now.

(Motion negatived)

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Accordingly, our witness today is Mr. Karlheinz Schreiber, who is accompanied by his lawyer.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I'm sorry; I'm in the middle of my statement. Thank you.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

On a point of privilege, Mr. Chair.

[An hon. member]

We have a point of order, which trumps your statement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I'm sorry. The first words that came to me were not the words “point of order”.

Are you asking me on a point of order? Please state the nature of the point of order.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Chair, I counted five votes. On the last voting, there were five hands that went up on the government side.

[An hon. member]

And there were two Liberal members who didn't vote, Mr. Hubbard and Mr.—

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Van Kesteren, I sought the count from the clerk, and he advises me that the motion was defeated. That's the decision.

Now, Mr. Schreiber, I remind you that you are still under oath.

As I indicated to you previously, if you have a brief opening statement to make regarding your testimony so far, in the event that there's something you would like to clarify, etc., or if you have any subsequent developments or new evidence you wish to give, I will hear from you now.

Do you have any statement to make, sir?

[Karlheinz Schreiber, As an Individual]

Yes, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

And how long do you believe this will take, Mr. Schreiber?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

I have no idea. It depends whether somebody asks. I come back to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

How much time would you like, sir?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Proceed.

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

It depends.

The last time, I was asked about the Bear Head project, which is the key project in the whole matter, and I told you that this matter was in front of the German tax authorities, with a request as to who the recipients were, and that I explained they were at GCI, Frank Moores.

I remind you that I gave you a road map to start with. I think it's the most efficient way, because when you have special questions, I can go and prepare the relevant material, which I did for a couple of days.

I have here the whole Bear Head file, with the documents from the German tax authorities and all the important communication and correspondence and agreements, whatever it might be. I think it will give the members of the committee a complete understanding of what really happened and how Thyssen, the Canadian soldiers, and the people in Nova Scotia were betrayed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

The clerk's assistant will take the document and have it copied for the members.