Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2023

[John Fraser]

I'll say it again: The witness will be appearing here. I think that's the most appropriate place for that question

Thank you. That's understandable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Fraser, for being here today.

When I was listening to you speak earlier about Mr. Fergus, I don't know, but perhaps you were a little humble in your relationship. Mr. Fergus referred to you as a role model.

He said that you're somebody that he looked up to and learned a lot from. He said that he's babysat your children and that you've babysat his children, and that you were there particularly for him as a support around the time that he was getting married. Are you a role model for a lot of people like this or...?

[John Fraser]

Okay. The tribute's over.

Like most of you, I've met a lot of people in politics and in the grocery business. They become lifelong friends. Greg's not one of my kids. He's more like a brother. I've met a lot of brothers and I have kids in politics, like all of you do—people who worked for me 10 years ago when I started and worked for me when I worked for Dalton McGuinty. It's not like I'm trying to be a parent to them. I just want them to succeed.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Your relationship certainly was unique. I mean, you were quite close with him. I'm sure that, as you indicated, you meet a lot of people and get to know a lot of people. The impression we were left with from Mr. Fergus was that you had a very close relationship that was perhaps much...well, not perhaps. It was indeed much more than an acquaintance just through politics. You were on a very personal level with him. You would agree with that, I assume.

[John Fraser]

Yes, I would.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Your wife, who we now understand was the one who requested, if I heard that correctly, would have known about that close relationship, obviously.

[John Fraser]

Yes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

She left her children with him to babysit.

When your wife made this request of Mr. Fergus, do you think there was any possibility that she was making the request of him as the Speaker of the House of Commons, or do you think she was making the request as an individual, Greg Fergus?

[John Fraser]

I know she was making the request as my friend—as someone I had known a long time.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Is there any possibility in your mind that she was making the request of the Speaker of the House of Commons? Would she have made this request had it been any other Speaker in the House of Commons?

[John Fraser]

All I can say is that the only other non-family member in the video was my boss of 30 years and my friend. I've known him for 30 years and he was my boss for 15 years. In some ways he's still the boss. He was the only other person to speak.

It was based on relationships and that's why she asked. It was our friendship, how close we've been and how that friendship had lasted a lifetime. We all....

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm just trying to picture the correspondence here, and I'm hearing that there might be an opportunity to get a little more detail on that later. I'm just trying to picture how this went down, for lack of a better expression.

Mr. Fergus is contacted by your wife, who is clearly not going through the channels of the official correspondence with the Speaker's office. Mr. Fergus receives the request of somebody he knows very well—he's babysat her children and she has allowed her children to be babysat by him—and he replies, “Yes, of course I'll do that. This is my friend.” Is that a fair assessment of how it probably went down?

There are people around this table who are trying to paint this as though official correspondence comes to the Speaker's office. The Speaker's office weighs the pros and cons. The Speaker's office decides that yes, he should make this video. The Speaker's office coordinates setting up this video.

I think that, based on what Mr. Fergus has said and based on your testimony today, it's much more plausible that your wife, who is a lifelong friend of Mr. Fergus, reached out and said, “Hey, we're doing this event for John.” It's going to be private or the information was delivered in such a manner as to suggest that and then she says, “Will you make this video?” or “Will you record something?”

Is that a fair assessment?

[John Fraser]

Again, as I said earlier, I'm not privy to the exact details of the conversation. What I do know is that she made a request, as a friend and for a friend, asking a friend to provide—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. DeBellefeuille, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Mr. Fraser, concerning your testimony, we have to be clear: the problem is not that your wife asked her friend Greg to make a video, it is that Mr. Fergus made a video at his friend's request but kept his Speaker of the House of Commons garb on and stayed in his office. That is the mistake.

Ultimately, who can criticize a friend who makes a video for a friend? Mr. Gerretsen told you that your wife approached an old friend, a very close friend, based on all the details you have given, but the big problem is that she asked for something from a friend who forgot that he was also the Speaker of the House of Commons and kept his Speaker's garb on to pay tribute to him, going so far as to introduce himself as Speaker of the House of Commons. It is not a video along the lines of "Hi John, I'm Greg;" rather, it is along the lines of "I am the Speaker of the House of Commons," with all his garb and in his office. That is the problem.

We are not denying that your wife did something nice, that you are good friends, and that Mr. Fergus is a good person. This takes nothing away from him in that regard. What it takes away from him is that he made a bad decision and he showed poor judgment. It is very sad to say, Mr. Fraser, but you are here today to defend Mr. Fergus because he is your friend and you feel bad that he is in a fix because of a situation relating to his tribute to you.

As a parliamentarian, it is impossible for you not to feel bad about the fact that he has compromised his impartiality. The way he made that tribute compromised his impartiality to the point that the members of the House of Commons unanimously told him that he had undermined the confidence of the House. You cannot say that what he did is not serious. It was nice of him to say fine words of friendship and love to you, but not the way he did it. That is what he is being criticized for.

You, as a parliamentarian, would you have liked your Speaker, dressed in his garb—I do not know how he dresses where you are, to be able to introduce himself at a Conservative convention and make the same video paying tribute and expressing love for a friend? You would probably have been the first to raise the hue and cry, as we are doing now.

[John Fraser]

I've come here because the committee expressed concern. I respect Parliament, and I respect committees. I came here to tell you what I know. I think I've done that.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

You have a lot of friends in Queen's Park and across the country with your long career. How many MPPs would you count as personal friends?

[John Fraser]

Wow.

I have a lot of friends in the Ontario legislature. It's more than nine, or eight, I should say, which I remember in the party. I have some pretty close friends in all parties. I have been there 10 years. Some of them I worked with from other parties before I got into the legislature. I have a lot of friends and people I care about, sort of lifelong personal friends, people who, when you get together, you start from where you left off. Maybe it's half a dozen friends, and that would include members outside the legislature.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Absolutely. I have no doubt of that.

The only MPP or former MPP who was in the video was Mr. McGuinty. Is that correct?

[John Fraser]

Yes. I've known him for 30 years, and I actually worked for him for 14 years.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay.

How many federal MPs would you count as friends?

[John Fraser]

I would say.... Oh, my gosh. John Manley, who is no longer a federal MP, is somebody who would be a close, personal friend.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes.