Justice Committee on Dec. 5th, 2013

[Chief Brian David]

It was just a matter of good police work, our policing work in cooperation, collaboration with other police agencies, partnerships. All of the work that went into developing common missions, common visions, putting together operational plans that were sensible to the SQ, the OPP, the RCMP. All policing agencies were looking for that consensus and moving that consensus towards what the community actually needed.

I think there was a realization within the police and community that if that area was going to be effectively policed, it was absolutely necessary that it be done in collaboration and in partnership with our community police force. I think more than anything it was that realization and those partnerships that did it.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

What you're saying, as I understand it, is that because dealing in contraband was not a criminal offence, but an infraction subject to a fine under the Excise Act, faced with the resistance on the river, the “criminal element” said, “Well, you know, we'll take our chances with bringing it in by road, and if we get caught, well, I guess there's a fine, and so on, but we're not going to jail.”

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that with a minimum sentence, they'll say now, “Well, you know, I'm not taking a chance by road, because obviously the risk of being caught crossing the border with a truck full of contraband is greater than the risk of crossing it over on the river.” They're going to come back to the river a little more determined than maybe before, because as you were saying at one point in your presentation, there's a certain element that may be not as hardened an element, for example, skilled people just looking for some extra money. They're going to vacate the whole process, and those who have nothing to lose will now say, “I'm not taking a chance at the road border. I'm going to go back to the river.” This is what is going to bring the problem back to the river. Is my understanding correct?

[Chief Brian David]

Yes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In terms of the Gladue decision, which says that the judges should take account of the situation of an aboriginal defendant in sentencing, and so on, the courts will still be able to do that, except when the minimum sentence kicks in. We've seen courts strike down minimum sentences. With respect to arguably more serious crimes such as owning an unregistered firearm, the court has struck down minimum sentences. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not an expert, but I'm just wondering if it's possible that the court will strike down this minimum sentence.

As I understand it also, you obviously want to put an end to this contraband system, but you don't want to penalize young aboriginals who will then go to jail and, as you say, come back and become a problem for the community because of all they've learned in jail.

If there was not a minimum sentence, would you feel comfortable with the bill? The judge could take account of the situation of the aboriginal offenders and not give them a minimum sentence, but steer them in the direction of restorative justice. If we're talking about a hardened Hells Angel, or whatever, the judge could come down a little harder. Would you be comfortable with the legislation if it didn't have the minimum sentence after the first infraction?

[Chief Brian David]

I think there needs to be an opportunity for the judge to exercise some discretion on whether or not a diversion decision is applicable and may be the best decision under the circumstance. The way the law is currently framed, it doesn't allow him the discretion to do that—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I have limited time.

You have no problem with the idea of moving the offence to the Criminal Code, as long as we're not overpopulating our prison system—the provincial prison system, by the way—with young aboriginals or other aboriginals, who, as you say, Chief Thomas, are on their way down to the States and have good work down there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

We need your answer, please, Chief.

[Chief Brian David]

Let me frame this another way. I don't have a problem with the bill, but the message that's coming across the table here is, if you're going to pass a law like this, we think—in fact it's our position—that you need to take into account some of the activities that are occurring at our level. We need to have some accommodation made. There might even be a necessity for a sidebar protocol to deal with particular specific circumstances.

If we're talking about a manufacturing regime in our communities that could lead to trade and commerce, we're going to be involved in transport. We don't want Bill C-10 to strike that initiative down.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much. We're well over time. Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. McColeman, who is going to share his time with Mr. Dechert, I think.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

That is correct, Chair, thank you.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

I have one question. On your territories is there unlicensed manufacturing, meaning manufacturers of cigarettes, the kind of Baggie-style units? Are there manufacturers on your territories who are not licensed?

[Chief Gina Deer]

On our territory, yes, there are, because people in Kahnawake believe that, as long as they conduct business within the territory, it is Mohawk jurisdiction, so the laws outside do not apply.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay.

[Chief Brian David]

In our jurisdiction the manufacturers are licensed.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay. All the manufacturers on your territory are licensed.

[Chief Brian David]

Within our jurisdiction, certainly.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

It's your own jurisdiction. It's not the....

I know in Ontario, the Ontario government sets out standards and licensing for cigarette manufacturing.

[Chief Brian David]

The Mohawk Council has jurisdiction north of the international line, so we're talking about Ontario and Quebec. If you're asking about the part of Akwesasne that is in the southern portion, it's not at the table. I can't speak for them.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

The reason I asked the question is that I represent Six Nations of the Grand River. The largest cigarette manufacturer in Canada is Grand River Enterprises. They are a licensed producer of cigarette products.

There are 11 other unlicensed manufacturers on Six Nations, and I was curious to know the numbers on your territories.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions.

Mr. Dechert, the remaining time is yours.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to each of the chiefs for being here.

Chief Deer, you mentioned that the trade in tobacco is historic in your community. In your estimation, how much revenue is generated from the sale of tobacco within your local community?

[Chief Gina Deer]

Right now we don't have any definite numbers because the community has just decided that they would like to see the Mohawk Council have a law and regulations. That's what we need in order to have actual numbers.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Would you say it's significant or substantial?

[Chief Gina Deer]

Definitely. As I stated earlier, it's something that's benefiting the surrounding communities.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

In your view, will Bill C-10 have an adverse impact on that revenue that's being generated?

[Chief Gina Deer]

Absolutely.