Justice Committee on April 17th, 2023

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you so much.

I have another question, for Mr. Aubertin-Giguère. Can you tell us, please, the difference between a terrorist entity and a terrorist group, and the rationale for the distinction?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

A listed entity is an organization that's been through a rigorous process of examination and has now met a certain legal threshold, whereas with a terrorist group organization, one of its activities is to support terrorist activities, which is also explained in the Criminal Code.

The reason for having both designations in the legislation is to allow us to have the flexibility to make sure that we are not reliant on only a master list but have the flexibility to evolve as the situation on the ground evolves and to make sure that we're adequately protecting against the risk of terrorist violence.

I don't know if Justice wants to add to that.

[Robert Brookfield]

As a technical point, I would note that at issue is 83.03(b), which prohibits providing information to a terrorist group. A terrorist group then includes both listed and unlisted terrorist groups.

The goal of Bill C-41 is to allow entities or organizations, if they wish to apply to be exempted from potential criminal liability from that provision, to seek an exemption. There is authorization, and that would apply to any group they are concerned that they might be dealing with, whether listed or unlisted.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.

We'll next go to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank our witnesses.

This meeting is extremely important, today. We need answers. As my colleague was saying, we have to vote as parliamentarians on a piece of legislation. We need to have all the information we need to make amendments or not and to vote. Right now, the missing data that NGOs are most concerned about is how long it will take to get this permit.

We are not here to embarrass you or pressure you. That is absolutely not the case. We are here because we need to form an opinion and understand how we are going to have to work on this bill and what amendments we will have to make. As I said, the main concern for NGOs is how it's going to work administratively and how long it's going to take. So that's very important to us.

Can you tell us how long it will take for an organization to get the ultimate approval from the Department of Public Safety to be able to work on the ground?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

I think we've been over this a few times.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

No, we have not received an answer.

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

I think we've given you all the possible answers to that question.

The bill is on the table, but we have not yet received all the amendments. So we don't have a clear picture of the entire bill yet. Furthermore, we have put on the table what we thought would make the bill most effective and adequate considering the reality. Therefore, we are not in a position to make amendments or propose things to put on the chopping block.

The other element will be administrative efficiency—that is, the ability of the government to organize an efficient administration regime. That's an element for which we have received specific funding. We're also going to make sure that we create the most efficient operational system possible. However, at this point, we are not able to quantify exactly—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So we're going to have to wrap our minds around it, but I understand. As I said, it's not at all a question to put anyone on the spot; rather, it's for us to gain some understanding.

I posed the question to all the ministers. They all said it was really complicated and complex, and that's why it took time to come up with Bill C‑41. That means there were other options on the table. If this bill had been the only option, it would have been written a long time ago and we would not have waited all this time.

You participated in those conversations. What other options did different departments put on the table to tackle the problem?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

I will let the Department of Justice describe all the options, but it's clear that we reviewed everything the allies did and the issue of exclusion. However, considering the current legal regime in Canada, the conclusion was that it was the most appropriate option.

[Robert Brookfield]

I'm obviously not in a position to speak to what Cabinet discussed, but parliamentary committees heard other options. Specifically, there was talk about a broader exception for humanitarian assistance and the subjects to cover. That idea was put on the table. There were several academics who argued that nothing was necessary and that there were other non-legislative options to put forward.

I can therefore say that there were several options, including those suggested to the government by the public. In the end, the government had to choose between the selected option and a very broad and flexible exception. However, there was no assurance for the individuals applying or for third parties, such as a financial institution, to know if they were exempt from the legislation or if they had to stay with what is currently in place. That means taking into account the risk of criminal prosecution, including whether or not there have been any prosecutions to date.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The committee is aware that, on a geopolitical level—we don't hope for it, but we see it all the same; we aren't out to lunch—there is an increasing chance that things won't go well, and that more and more territories will be controlled by terrorist entities all over the world. At the same time, it's all multiplied by the effects of climate change. Natural disasters will happen more and more often. So, x multiplied by y equals a lot of humanitarian crises.

Let's take an example that's hypothetical, but could happen in everyday life.

If there were an earthquake tomorrow morning in a territory controlled by a terrorist entity, it would be important for humanitarian aid organizations to get on the ground within the following hours. Does the current legislation in Canada allow them to obtain that kind of authorization? It's what the committee wants to know.

[Jennifer Loten]

I would like to say yes, and that is our intention.

It's also important to note that, during the months when the Taliban controlled Afghanistan, we did not stop Canadian humanitarian aid arriving on the ground. We worked through United Nations organizations and other international organizations. We continued to work with them.

I hope we will be able to do the same in emergencies that come up around the world.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

With all due respect, there are currently Canadian organizations that may have more expertise in certain territories. I think that was rather clear. The same thing was said earlier.

We parliamentarians will be voting on this bill. We therefore have to make sure it meshes with our NGO friends, who know the field better than anyone else. As parliamentarians, we have a responsibility to ensure that they succeed in deploying quickly to the field.

That being said, I have asked this question of several ministers and I've never received an answer. I hope to get one from you. Since everyone knows the problem, how come it took over 15 months before coming up with this bill?

You were involved in those conversations. The Minister of Public Safety said there was a sense of urgency. Were there enough meetings? How often did you meet? Without revealing the content of those conversations, are you able to give me an answer?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Be very brief.

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

I can assure you that government representatives worked very intensively throughout the entire process.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Can you give the committee the exact number of meetings you had on the subject since February 2022?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

I don't have those details with me, but…

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Is it possible to provide them to the committee after the meeting? Thank you.

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

We will do what we can to send you an answer on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

If you can provide that afterwards, that would be appreciated.

Next we'll go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank you all for being here today and for answering our questions.

You have spoken about how this decision was made based on information that you received when you liaised with the humanitarian sector. Could you provide this committee with a list of the organizations that asked for this process instead of a humanitarian carve-out? If you could provide a list of the organizations that didn't want a humanitarian carve-out but wanted this onerous task instead, that would be great.

I also have some questions about timing. I understand that you can't answer the questions with exactness on this, but I just very quickly texted a friend I know who works in the sector. She put in a proposal for grant funding in May 2022 and has now been told that it will be many months before she receives a decision.

I don't blame anyone at Global Affairs Canada. They are underfunded. They are under-resourced and they are overworked. That has been happening for some time. The 15% cut to our ODA is not going to help that situation, but I will say that it does make me very concerned that we don't have the capacity within government to do this in a timely fashion. This is a problem.

Ms. Loten, you said in your testimony that you would be asking for no additional information from organizations, so why are we doing this? If you're not going to get any additional information, why on earth do we need to go through this process?

It's a rhetorical question, obviously, but you can hear from my tone that I don't really see why it makes much sense to take the exact information that you already gather and use it to process something.... I think, more importantly, one of the things I'm most concerned with is that humanitarian organizations, humanitarians and people working in the field of humanitarian care are already protected under international humanitarian law. We have a legal framework there, so we were already making them prove they weren't criminals with our anti-terrorism legislation. This is making them prove it again. It doesn't make any sense. This legislation doesn't make any sense.

When you add to the fact that it doesn't make sense the fact that you're not getting any more information than you already gather and that we're looking at a situation in which you're asking three ministers to be involved—a situation in which we can't get things through the door when there's one minister involved, and now there are going to be three ministers involved—how on earth would this even work? It's just not possible.

Listen. I'm going to be bringing forward some amendments. I'm not asking you questions, because I don't think I'm going to get an answer I'm going to like.

The amendments that I'm going to be bringing forward are going to be to change the wording of “terrorist group” to “listed entity”. They are going to provide clarity to humanitarian organizations. There will be an amendment requiring the public safety minister to identify and publish the geographical areas that are controlled by listed entities, an amendment that changes the 180 days to 30 days or eliminates the period entirely, and an amendment to ensure that legislation applies to Canadian citizens, permanent residents and visa holders.

Are you open to these amendments? Will you support amendments like these, which would strengthen this legislation?

[Jennifer Loten]

I'd like to start by saying that you raised excellent points. You already know that; I don't have to say it. We share those concerns, and the way this has been designed so far, I hope, addresses a lot of these things.

I'll take one at a time. On the issue about publishing a list of terrorist-controlled organizations, obviously, from a diplomatic perspective, that's incredibly difficult to do. It's also very likely that the governments that are listed in a list like that would object, and it doesn't serve any useful purpose.

As far as listing—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yet we're going to ask the organizations to—