Justice Committee on April 17th, 2023

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That's what I wanted to raise. Indeed, it's normal, except that in the bill, the government also noted that any other requirement outlined in the regulations could be imposed on NGOs.

Which additional requirements do you think will be outlined in the regulations?

It's not clear right now. It's important for NGOs to know what they are, but we don't have them, for the time being.

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

Yes, but the regulatory process will follow passage of the bill and be established in collaboration with organizations that work on the ground. The goal is to make sure that the content of the regulations line up with real situations experienced by the organizations.

We don't yet have all the details on what we're going to include in the regulations, but work is being done in that respect. In any case, the regulatory process will happen in collaboration with the organizations.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Do you mean the NGOs you consulted during drafting of the bill?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

It will include those organizations.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Are you able to tell us if the bigger NGOs are being consulted right now?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

No, we will have to send you the potential list of NGOs.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Will Doctors Without Borders be included in consultations? We got the impression that this organization was somewhat forgotten during drafting of the bill.

[Jennifer Loten]

Yes, that organization plays a role in it and will be consulted.

Furthermore, I'd like to highlight that regulations are not normally part of the bill.

It's another layer of activity.

It is therefore completely normal for it to be worked out after passage of the bill.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That said, you must already have some potential solutions.

[Jennifer Loten]

We are working on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Unfortunately, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, your time is up.

We have Ms. McPherson for two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I said to Minister Mendicino and I'll say to this group as well that I recognize the job you're trying to do and the balance you're trying to strike, and it is my belief that the balance you've struck is wrong. I say this knowing that all opposition parties believe it, so of course we will be bringing forward amendments to try to fix this legislation. As you've heard from colleagues from all three opposition parties, we feel that this balance is wrong. You've brought forward legislation that will in fact hurt our humanitarian actors, the actors that I think all of us should be doing everything we can to support.

If we bring forward an amendment for a humanitarian carve-out for those organizations that are strictly working in the humanitarian sector, that are strictly under the IHL, would you recommend that the government accept that amendment?

[Jennifer Loten]

My view is that it would limit the legislation. A humanitarian carve-out prevents different kinds of activities that we want to make sure would be covered, so I think it would be unlikely, but again, that's not my decision. My view is that the shape we've given to the proposal in front of you provides the most flexibility and prevents us from having to come back to this table a few years down the line when the situation evolves to redo the amendment. We want it to be as broad and inclusive as possible, and that's why an exclusive carve-out, to me, speaking entirely personally, isn't the best way forward.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

The humanitarian carve-out would ensure that organizations that are just doing humanitarian work would be able to work faster and be more efficient in a system where we know—because experience has shown us time and time again—the government is not good at moving quickly. We don't have trust in the government to do those things, for very good reasons, I think we can all agree.

That humanitarian carve-out would let our humanitarian organizations get on the ground and help people in the minutes, hours and days after a humanitarian crisis, where it's necessary, and the legislation would still be in place to meet the balance that you seem to think is necessary with regard to international development activities like education and longer-term projects. One would think that this would meet both your needs and the needs of the humanitarian organizations.

[Jennifer Loten]

I guess that speed being provided to humanitarian organizations is what we hope is already contained. It does not change anything if we include broader categories.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Then why would we have it?

[Jennifer Loten]

I would ask, why not have the other categories?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I want to thank everyone. That concludes our round of questions.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

I have just two items of business left.

There is a motion for a deadline to submit amendments for the purpose of the clause-by-clause study of Bill C-41, an act to amend the Criminal Code and make consequential amendments to other acts. It is “that...the deadline to submit amendments be Thursday, April 20, at 5 p.m.”

Is there someone proposing the motion?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, can I just confirm? Obviously it makes sense for us to give notice of amendments as much as possible, but my understanding of the rules is that if there are discussions that happen over the weekend, we're still able to bring amendments of which notice has not been given or to propose some amendments on the floor as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Well, I think that by Thursday, April 20, that's sufficient—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

My understanding of the rules, though, is that it's required for getting into the amendment package for distribution, but that we will still have the opportunity to move amendments on the floor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Yes, of course.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

We're going to get in all our amendments in advance if we can, but there may be discussions that happen among parties over the weekend, and we're on a tight timeline here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

That's fine.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. With that understanding, then, that's great.