Evidence of meeting #4 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I'd say so.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Were any of those meetings one-on-one, or were they always in groups?
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
The majority of them were in groups. We would chat, too. There were always conversations that would happen around the PRT or KAF, as well. But if you're talking formal briefings, of course there were other people in the room.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
You never had an occasion or took an occasion to speak to the minister one-on-one about concerns.
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
When he would come through, we would talk about the general situation on the ground in Kandahar. I think we had a very constructive relationship, and he was always interested in hearing from me and other civilians about issues and the state of play.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
There were no one-on-one conversations about specific concerns about prisoner abuse and so on.
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
We would talk occasionally about the NDS, in general terms.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Yes.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you.
When you go to a place like Afghanistan, it's obviously natural to have concerns. You talked earlier about a standard we would expect from the NDS or from the Afghans. Of course, the Canadian standard and the standard in a place like Afghanistan will never be the same. Is that fair to say?
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I believe that human rights standards apply whether you are in Somalia or Afghanistan or Ottawa.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
The standards apply, but would we expect the same level of performance, realistically, from a Canadian in Ottawa as we would in the boondocks in Afghanistan?
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Yes, we would, because we have seen evidence of that behaviour in Sarposa Prison among officials. They have been mentored and trained by Canadian officials and have benefited.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
That's exactly my point. We work with what we have. When we go to a place like Afghanistan or Rwanda or Somalia or the Congo, we're going to expect to have concerns. Is that fair to say?
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
It's fair to say that it is not the environment of North America.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Exactly, so we're always going to have concerns about places like that.
Is it also fair to say that one of our primary roles when we go to a place like that, in the context of human rights and so on, is working with the people who are there--in other words, playing the hand we are dealt with? I mean, you have to work with what's there, in this case the NDS.
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
You have to work with what's there, as long as you're aware of all of the details and the situation at hand. The United States, for all of its close and much more in-depth relationship with the NDS than ours, still has its own detention facilities in Afghanistan. They don't work with the NDS in the same way we do in terms of transferring detainees.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
That's absolutely true. The fact, though, is that Canada is there. As you said, and we know this to be true, we have worked very diligently with the NDS, the prison system, the Department of Justice to raise their level to as high as we can get it.
Do you think their level will ever be the same as the level in Canada?
4:15 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I did not see an improvement in NDS behaviour throughout my time there. I have seen it at Sarposa Prison.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Would you believe it if I told you that the people in charge of that now in Kandahar said at Christmas time there has been considerable improvement—not to where we would like it to be, but there has been improvement.
4:15 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I would take your word for that, sure.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON
This is really the critical point. Whatever improvements there may or may not have been, I hear your testimony saying two things: one, that we've had to be conscious all the way through of our obligations under international law with respect to torture; and two, that if we believe there is a risk of torture, we don't transfer prisoners. That's our obligation.
Would you agree with me?
4:15 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Yes.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON
There isn't a standard for Afghanistan that says, well, it's okay for that to happen in Afghanistan, because their country is at a lower level of development than somewhere else? That's not part of the Geneva Convention.
