Canada-China Relations Committee on Dec. 8th, 2020

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

It's a police state, so you're going to see as many cameras in Beijing as there are in Lhasa, I would believe.

This is an example of using facial recognition technology to classify human beings based on their ethnicity, something that I think would violate certainly human rights and which has a racist component to it as well.

Is this a company that the Government of Canada should want to associate itself with?

[Dominic Barton]

On the point of facial recognition and the ethnic bias or differentiation, I also worry. I fully concur with your concerns.

I think as it relates to Huawei, I don't know enough background in terms of what they've done on that. I'm not involved, in my role here, in anything to do with the Huawei decision, so I'd rather not comment on that.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

The last time you were with us, I believe you said that Canada's 5G network will have to be made...and you said whichever way it goes, there will be consequences.

What do you think some of those consequences are for Canada?

[Dominic Barton]

I think the decision that the government is going to make on the Huawei 5G is obviously a very important one. Other countries have been affected by that. I look at least at some of the commentary recently in Sweden. It's obviously played a role in Australia as well, so I think there are consequences to it.

The other part that I would say is that I think a lot of Canadian telco companies have already made decisions in terms of what they're going to do and where it is.

Clearly it's a sensitive area and there will be.... I honestly don't know because I think there is...other than that people will be upset, will be mad about it. Again, I think we need to do what we think is right for us and our Canadian interests and then be prepared to deal with the consequences of the decision, whatever way it goes.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Has Canada's embassy in China prepared for the two scenarios? What steps have you prepared given that a decision should come in the next couple of weeks?

[Dominic Barton]

In terms of preparing for different scenarios, we look at a whole range of different things. There is a lot of interaction and feedback from the MFA whenever the government makes a statement on a particular topic, or actually, on what your committee is doing, which I think is important work. It has repercussions. We get feedback on that.

We're preparing as best we can for a range of different outcomes like that. There's not a lot we can actually do except try to explain that we are following a science-based process.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I have a short amount of time and I have one question on Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. Could you just tell us what are they like? You've seen them. Are they shells of their former selves? Are they broken men? Will Canadians be shocked when they eventually see them, based on their physical condition or their mental condition?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Very briefly, please.

[Dominic Barton]

Again, there's the Privacy Act. I'd love to be able to go into more detail but I can't. What I would just say is they are robust. That's what I find inspiring. You would be very impressed by seeing both of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Williamson.

We'll now go to Mr. Virani for five minutes.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ambassador, for joining us.

I represent about 7,000 Tibetan Canadians in my riding of Parkdale—High Park. I'm also the chair of the Parliamentary Friends of Tibet and have a background in human rights law. That's the orientation from which I come to this issue.

I'm glad you acknowledged my Tibetan constituents. The Tibetan Canadian community is vibrant and strong in this country. I know groups like the Canada-Tibet Committee and Sherap Therchin have been in contact with you. I echo your assessment of the community, because they've taught me a lot about the injustices that they're perceiving on the ground.

I'd also salute you for making the decision to go, notwithstanding the veneer that would have been presented to you and the stage-managed approach with which the Chinese would have approached your visit into the TAR. In my meeting with His Holiness the Dalai Lama in 2018, he told me much the same, that notwithstanding what you may be presented with, it's important that the world see Tibetans in their territory for who they are and that they know the world has not forgotten them. Thank you for participating in that, Ambassador Barton.

That being said, I am suspicious about what you saw. I know you went in with your eyes wide open in terms of what you were seeing.

The first thing I want to ask you about is the linguistic point that's been raised by others, including by Mr. Bergeron. You know that there are provisions on the ground and laws about the education of people. We know there's an ethnic autonomy law in China that says schools and other educational organizations recruiting mostly ethnic minority students should, whenever possible, use textbooks in their own languages and use these languages as the medium of instruction. That's a quote from China's regional ethnic autonomy law.

Tell us a bit more about what you saw at that school in particular. I appreciate calligraphy is one thing, but actually having substantive courses being taught in Tibetan is quite the other. What is the status of linguistic protection from your assessment and your time on the ground?

[Dominic Barton]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for the work he does with the community and everything that's happening on that front.

On the school, it was a large primary school. It was actually grades 1 to 4. We tried to see as many classes as we could beyond the ones that they'd asked us to, if you will. With our group of 10, we were able to do that. It was just an observation but we got the sense that science and math were being done in Mandarin. Now it could be what some people said, that there's a Tibetan stream on that. We didn't see that. We saw the Mandarin stream on that. Then there were the calligraphy and the opera courses, the more artistic elements and they were done in Tibetan. Clearly Tibetan is taught. People have to be able to speak that language in there, but it felt to us that the core one was Mandarin.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I was taken by what you mentioned about language instruction. You mentioned a woman who is Canadian taking her family back to immerse them more in Tibetan culture, but I know there are classes in Parkdale where people are being taught languages. I shudder to think whether that would even be possible in places like Lhasa.

You know about the case of Tashi Wangchuk, a very celebrated linguistic activist who was charged and subsequently jailed for daring to promote Tibetan language instruction. Is that the kind of case you were able to raise, specifically people like Tashi Wangchuk and other linguistic activists who have been jailed by the Chinese in the Tibet Autonomous Region?

[Dominic Barton]

Right. As I mentioned, the language element was the fundamental area we wanted to look at, and we were concerned and trying to find out more on that. I am very much aware of the Tashi Wangchuk situation, which has been raised by ministers with the Chinese government. I didn't raise his specific case here because he's in Qinghai, so they don't have authority over him. His name was mentioned in it but it was more because of what he stands for on the language side.

The other part I would say is that I tried to spend time in bookstores. I tried to look at what was in there, what they were reading. I found that in the back of the bookstores, there were Tibetan books, children's books. There's that aspect to it. In fact, I asked one of the minders who is Tibetan to tell me what they were, because I can't read Tibetan. I picked up one to buy it and she said, “Don't buy a translation of Aladdin. Buy a real Tibetan book. This is the one you should buy.” There are books there, clearly. Do you know what I mean?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Ambassador, just in the brief time I have, I would say that we've heard a lot about the two Michaels.Those are important cases, but I think the case of the Panchen Lama, which was one of the first questions put to you, remains very pressing. When he was seized, he was the youngest political prisoner on the planet. Continuing to assert and actually seek access to him is something that I personally would urge you to do on behalf of the Government of Canada going forward.

Thank you for your time, Ambassador Barton.

[Dominic Barton]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Virani. That ends your time.

The floor now goes to Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will end up thinking that Mr. Harris and I are kindred spirits today, since our questions are more or less along the same lines. I will try to follow up on his question with what I would like to ask you, Excellency.

Mr. Harris was talking to you about the middle way, the way of compromise, the negotiation that the Central Tibetan Administration is advocating. From what you have been able to see and hear, do you think there is a place for this middle way? From your understanding of what Chinese officials have told you, is there a possibility of negotiation with the Central Tibetan Administration in India?

[Dominic Barton]

Mr. Chair, on the middle way, I think the point I would make is that the government's position is that we recognize that the Tibet Autonomous Region is part of the People's Republic of China, but we support the meaningful dialogue. I think that's a very good thing to do, and I note the motion that you guys passed on that, which I think is very positive. I think we should be pushing for that. I think it's a very good thing to do. Even if the TAR was able to reinforce what is actually in the constitution in China, that would be a good thing.

I think it's important to do it. It felt pretty hard-line from the authorities when they talked about His Holiness and the group. They used pretty aggressive language, but I think we should urge for that dialogue to be able to find common ground.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I sense some hope on your side.

I am inclined to ask you a question about the report tabled by this committee in the House of Commons about the dialogue in which the parties were called to participate. Earlier, you talked about the repercussions of the actions taken. Have you had any reaction from Chinese authorities on the committee's report?

[Dominic Barton]

I think the Chinese watch and hear what you're saying and where it is. That motion, again, I support it. I think that's a very good thing to do. I think they hear it. Whether they do something or not is a different question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Now we have Mr. Harris for two and a half minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll follow a little further on from your response to Mr. Bergeron. You said about the pursuit of this long-standing notion of reconciliation, so-called, reconciliation policy—and there have been fits and starts over the last number of years for various reasons—that Canada should push it.

Is it Canada's policy to do so or to try to find openings for that? Are you doing anything as ambassador to pursue that? Are there openings for you to do that? Are you pursuing that? Is it something that people should know about?

[Dominic Barton]

It is something that we raised, the importance of having dialogue. That's the critical part. Again, we weren't pushing the middle way but saying it's important to have dialogue. I think, as you said, there was very good dialogue going on until about 2010. Given the age of His Holiness and where it is, I think there's some urgency to that.

We are not, obviously, in the greatest position to tell China what to do given our bilateral ties, but that said, we should continue to keep and push to try to do it because that's what we believe in. Again, I don't think we would go on the trip if there wasn't some sense of respect more for what Canada thinks about this and where it is. They obviously recognize that Canada's views on this are important and they know that we're critical on many elements of what's happening. I think we should keep pushing.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I know this is not necessarily on your remit here tonight but we've had a lot of work before our committee over the last number of months on the situation in Hong Kong. How big a feature has Hong Kong played in your relations as ambassador with the Chinese officials during the last number of months?