Canada-China Relations Committee on May 3rd, 2021

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

This is related to Canada-China relations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Just a minute. I'm going to stop the clock.

Mr. Genuis, do you have a point of order?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Ms. Zann is telling me it's relevant to the work of the committee.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It's very relevant.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I haven't yet stated what my point of order is about.

I will note that Liberal members of the defence committee voted to shut down an inquiry into the appointment of General Vance. It's interesting that they shut down the inquiry at the defence committee, and now they're trying to bring it up at the Canada-China committee on an unrelated topic.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Chair—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If Liberals want to adjudicate this issue, perhaps they will agree to reopen the investigation at the defence committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Ms. Zann, when someone is raising a point of order, you have to wait until you're recognized by the chair.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm not sure I heard what Mr. Genuis's point of order was about. However, I think I know where he's going with that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It was about relevance, but I was trying to be constructive and give the Liberals an opportunity to adjudicate these same issues at another committee, where they had previously shut down the study of this very issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We are studying the national security aspects of the relationship between Canada and China. While members have a pretty broad leeway, I would ask them to bring their questions within that context.

Ms. Zann, you have about 30 seconds remaining.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is extremely important. Canadians deserve to know what exactly each witness is bringing to the committee, and that includes their experience and any bias. It would seem to me that my Conservative colleague is making me think that perhaps the Conservatives are worried about the questioning and where it's leading, especially since Erin O'Toole was a member of cabinet at the time.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Bring it up at the defence committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Order.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'm not on the defence committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

That concludes Ms. Zann's time. Thank you very much, Ms. Zann.

Mr. Bergeron, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, let me say how uncomfortable this situation makes me concerning witnesses who are graciously testifying on topics of interest to us.

Mr. Fadden, I would like to come back to a question put to you by Mr. Paul-Hus, regarding, once again, how Canada must react to potential Chinese cyber attacks. I often use the following information because it is impressive to me. According to Greg Austin, who is in charge of the cyber, space and future conflict programme at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, China's cyber defence capacities are much lower than those of the foremost western powers, including Canada. For example, according to Mr. Austin, Canada is ranked ninth of the assessed countries—155 of them—while China is ranked 27th.

How come China is this much of a threat for Canada, and Canada cannot be a threat for China considering the rankings Mr. Austin talked about?

[Richard Fadden]

I completely disagree with Mr. Austin. I don't think China is ranked 20th among global powers with cyber attack capabilities. It may not be ranked first, but it is certainly among the top three. It has made monumental progress over the past decade, and it poses a fundamental threat, not only for us, but also for countries like the United States.

If what Mr. Austin is saying was true, former U.S. President Barack Obama would not have negotiated a quasi-agreement with China to try to reduce those attacks on the private sector. I definitely don't think China is ranked 20th.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Is Mr. Austin perhaps basing his information on obsolete data? How can an organization as credible as his come up with such a ranking?

[Richard Fadden]

I really don't know. All I can tell you is that, based on my experience of some 10 years in the national security sector, no one—not the British, or the Australians, or the Americans, or the French, or the Germans—would say that China is ranked 19th.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Despite the technological capabilities of western countries, you would say that China is well ahead of them. Is that correct?

[Richard Fadden]

Something of a game is being played.

China has a specific advantage that gives it access for a cyber attack. Eventually, a way would be found to stop that attack. Over the coming months and years, China would then find a way to circumvent our defensive measure.

That is basically what was happening during the Cold War. Our enemies would take a step forward, we would find a way to stop them, and they would find another way to do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.