Evidence of meeting #25 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was universities.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Thank you.
That was very strong testimony.
Professor Ong, you've been very patient. I, for one, would love to hear your recommendations, because I liked how you opened up your remarks about the balance between civil rights in this country versus the security threat.
I have five minutes. I'll give you a couple of minutes and then I'm hoping for a little dialogue.
I'd love to hear your recommendations. I will cut you off after three and a half or four minutes, but it's over to you until then.
Associate Professor of Political Science, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Thank you for that opportunity and the question.
For number one, I would recommend that we boost our immunity by educating relevant government agencies on the risk of foreign interference and espionage. As someone who knows and understands China, I am also quite alarmed by some of the very basic things that we could have avoided, such as working with Chinese police agencies. I think the chain may be very long, but if someone had done the work of investigating who actually owns VFS, I think we could avoided that problem earlier.
My number two recommendation is that official discussion on espionage and foreign interference should adopt country-agnostic language. That is in light of the skyrocketing anti-Asian hate crimes that have been going on since the onset of the pandemic.
For number three, I would recommend an increase in funding of Chinese language media and outreach programs to grassroots Chinese communities in order to reduce their reliance, as I mentioned, on foreign media sources for news and information coming from China.
Number four is to recognize the enormous diversity of the Asian or Chinese community in Canada. Their allegiance to either the Chinese government or the Chinese Communist Party should not be presumed.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
I largely agree with your points, particularly the last one.
Could I ask you about the first one? You mentioned government agencies. Would you include provinces and even universities and businesses on that list, as well?
Associate Professor of Political Science, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Absolutely.
I would reiterate my position. I think there are potential risks. From my vantage point, I am not privy to any intelligence information. I think there is the potential for risks, but we must boost our immunity by becoming more prepared—
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Let me ask you a question as an academic.
What about charges if we were to freeze or sever relations between mainland China and universities, and the notion that it impacts academic freedom. Where does that end?
Associate Professor of Political Science, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
I think that would be a grave mistake. I think the university sector benefits greatly from exchanges and interaction with Chinese partners.
It's on a continuum. We are so naive or ignorant about all the risks, and then we expose ourselves to the risks. If we become more educated on the risks, then we are a lot more prepared and we benefit from those exchanges.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Is theft not a problem? I'm not talking about an academic exchange. We're talking about scientific research, for example.
Associate Professor of Political Science, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Theft is potentially an issue. I'm not aware of any of those incidents. I'm a social scientist; I'm not in engineering. My research is not funded by Huawei and those politically sensitive areas.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
That's fair enough.
You had an interesting point about an agnostic approach. That's an interesting concept, but how do you take that approach when you're dealing with a country like China? It's the 800-pound gorilla; no other country in the world compares to it in its size, ideology and at times even its aggressiveness.
Associate Professor of Political Science, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Any informed and smart person—like anyone in this room—would know the elephant in the room.
I think by being agnostic, we can prevent a lot of finger-pointing and racial profiling.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
And the red-baiting. I see, yes. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Mr. Fadden, you talked about the strategic adversary, a nice-sounding term. It's like a hockey team. Then you mentioned an eight out of 10. That's quite a high-alert level. I assume a 10 is conflict. Is “strategic adversary” in fact the right term? Does that really convey the threat?
As an Individual
It's a good question.
It's the term that I have adopted, as have others. What it's trying to do, from my perspective, is to say that it's strategic in the sense that it's global. They're after us—if I can use the vernacular—from a whole variety of perspectives. They're after us in a negative way. That's all I meant by that. There probably is a better expression.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Thank you very much, Mr. Williamson.
We'll now go to Ms. Zann for five minutes.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Fadden, I wanted to ask you about a recent report by CBC on one of your current ventures, Awz Ventures, based in Toronto. The company seems to have attracted a number of former Conservative politicians to its ranks, including former Prime Minister Stephen Harper. I find it interesting that after you served for so long with the Harper administration, you're now working so closely with him.
Do you advise the former Prime Minister on any foreign policy as it relates to China?
As an Individual
No. As a matter of fact, I joined Awz's council of advisors before Mr. Harper [Technical difficulty—Editor] member. I do not advise Mr. Harper on absolutely anything whatsoever. My advice goes to Awz.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Do any of the companies that you work for do business with China or work for China?
As an Individual
It's one of the policies of Awz not to deal with China, among other countries. I think Russia is another one of those.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Okay. Thank you.
Regarding defence foreign policy, in your role as the national security advisor you would have engaged with the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. I assume matters related to China would have crossed your desk as a result.
How many of those files would have been from the former chief of the defence staff that you helped to appoint?
As an Individual
I really can't answer the question. You can imagine that the number of files that I dealt with over the course of the years. I just don't know the answer to that. I would say not very many, but I don't know.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Stephen Harper did appoint General Vance in July 2015. I believe Erin O'Toole was also at his cabinet table.
General Vance was under active investigation by the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service, and apparently just days after the Conservatives appointed General Vance, the police investigation was suddenly dropped. According to ATIP, the commanding officer said he was under pressure.
We know from testimony at the defence committee that Mr. Harper's former chief of staff, Ray Novak, confirmed it was you who briefed the Prime Minister, that the Prime Minister's Office had found nothing further with respect to the general's time at NATO and that the review of the matter was closed. Mr. Novak also said that operationally you had led the process at PCO for appointing Vance and that you would have been liaising with DND and CFNIS.
Can you please tell me if you were the one who helped to pressure Canada's military police to stop the sexual misconduct investigation into General Vance, because of your association with Mr. Harper?
As an Individual
Let me be clear up front: I had no association with Mr. Harper. I was a public servant, and I served him as loyally as I served Mr. Chrétien and as I tried to serve Mr. Trudeau.
I happened to be in a job that involved the appointment of Vance, and that was the end of it. I was involved in coordinating a number of candidates who were ultimately considered for the job of CDS, along with a number of others. We looked into them and interviewed them, but I would point out that appointments by the Governor in Council at that level don't involve investigations into individuals' private lives. At the time, we had no indication there was a problem with General Vance's life, except in one instance when he was stationed in Naples when I did a bit of an inquiry into what was happening with a lady who subsequently became his wife. That was the extent of the involvement.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Did you have anything to do with putting any pressure to drop that investigation?
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Do you believe that a well-run military is important for international relations, particularly, in Canada's case, when it comes to supporting the United Nations missions abroad?