Canada-China Relations Committee on May 3rd, 2021

Evidence of meeting #25 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was universities.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Canada-China Relations

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lynette H. Ong Associate Professor of Political Science, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Clerk of the Committee Ms. Marie-France Lafleur

Richard Fadden As an Individual

Gordon Houlden Director Emeritus, China Institute, University of Alberta, As an Individual

Paul Evans Professor, School of Public Policy and Global Affairs, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Justin Li Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Ward Elcock As an Individual

9 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

I have seen the comments in the press by some who are responsible who have indicated that they are taking appropriate measures to ensure that no information is available from the systems in Beijing. I am frankly not sure that I would find those positions credible.

In reality, that institution or that office functions entirely within the control of the Chinese intelligence services. For the foreign intelligence service, that is potentially gold, and the reality is there's almost always a way to access material no matter what security is put in place in a situation like that. I am not convinced by the arguments that the processing of information in the facility in Beijing is secure.

9:05 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

The company has already had data breaches in another country. In light of that, does it concern you—as it does us—that when we asked Canadian security agency officials what checks they had done, the answer was embarrassing silence? It seems no vetting was done. On top of that, the company's contract was renewed at least once?

Is there not reason to be extremely concerned that the personal information of people applying for Canadian visas could be shared with Chinese authorities?

9:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Ward Elcock

It would seem to me that it is an important concern, although, to be frank, the reality is that any communication by anyone in China, even to a Canadian embassy or a Canadian facility, would probably come to the attention of the Chinese no matter what security you put in place.

The reality is that in this case it does not seem that the protections to ensure the security of information are credible.

9:05 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Thank you.

9:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Now we'll go to Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Li, is your position at Carleton University as the head of the Confucius Institute an academic position or an administrative position?

9:05 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

Thank you, sir. It's administrative. It's not an academic one.

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

You look after the administration of the institute.

We had a witness before this committee on April 19 by the name of Carolyn Bartholomew. She is the chair of the United States-China Economic and Security Review Commission. She offered the opinion that the Confucius Institutes serve as “platforms for espionage,” a tool for the Chinese Communist Party to control Chinese students on university campuses, and a means to “spread the Chinese world view.”

Have you heard of this type of criticism or comment in relation to Confucius Institutes? I presume she's talking about the United States, but have you heard of this before?

9:05 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

I've read a similar one. I don't recall. There's a specific one, but I cannot speak—

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Do your activities involve being a platform for espionage in Canada through your institute?

9:05 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

No.

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Are the students controlled by the CCP?

9:05 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

No, absolutely not.

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

You don't do anything like that.

9:05 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

No.

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

This has no bearing and no relation to anything you do on your campus.

9:05 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

No.

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

You say you present these visiting scholars' resumés and applications to the university. Are you aware as to whether or not the visiting scholars who come are pre-selected or pre-screened within China before they are able to apply?

9:05 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

These Chinese academics who would like to come to Canada as a visiting scholar to teach Chinese contact our institute or they contact their own universities. I will find the candidates through the Confucius network of Chinese language instructors and then I will report to the department and faculties if they need an instructor. Then—

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

They'd be pre-approved by the Confucius Institute community of scholars before they apply.

9:05 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

We don't know that. You'd have to ask those at their institutes and what they do there. Carleton will review their academic qualifications—

9:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Yes, I understand that. You said that before, but you say they come from the Confucius Institute community of scholars before they come to Carleton.

9:10 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

I cannot speak for their institution.

9:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I see. It is the Confucius community scholars within China who receive offers to come here. Is that right?

9:10 p.m.

Director, National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Li

No, sometimes the individuals contact us. Sometimes they tell their universities, and then we contact the universities and they know, so they contact the individual. They don't—