Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2020

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Actually, the time is right now, because Canadian agencies have formed their opinion on the issue and have already expressed it. The four other members of the Five Eyes group have also made their position clear. So we still are not able to understand why the Canadian government is so slow to act.

Be that as it may, let me continue on the issue of national security. You told us earlier about the new polar silk road. We have noticed the interest that a Chinese company, Shandong Gold Mining Corporation Ltd., is showing in the Hope Bay gold mine in western Nunavut.

Do you consider that this interest shown by the company in question and by Chinese authorities themselves is geostrategic or economic in nature?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You have 15 seconds left, Mr. Bergeron.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, I did not understand the beginning of the question. I don't know whether the problem is at our end or at Mr. Bergeron's end. But I only heard the last five or 10 seconds of his question.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, with your permission, in light of that technical problem, I will repeat my question.

Mr. Minister, we were talking about national security. I was just saying that, earlier, you told us about the new polar silk road. We have noticed that a Chinese company, Shandong Gold Mining Corporation Ltd., is showing a lot of interest in the Hope Bay gold mine in western Nunavut.

As we know, and as we stated in last week's debate, Chinese companies are required to communicate information to the government of the People's Republic of China.

Do you see this Chinese company's interest in that mine in Canada's north as a commercial or a geostrategic interest?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Please answer in 15 seconds, Minister.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Okay, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the question, Mr. Bergeron.

We will have the opportunity to analyze that question. In terms of foreign investments, you know that, under the Investment Canada Act, there is a whole process to make sure that all aspects of national security are considered.

If there is an investment, we will be able to analyze the issue, together with all the agencies in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Now we'll go to Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us tonight, and for your opening remarks, in which you said that the safety and security of Canadians at home and abroad was our highest priority. I have to agree with that.

I want to ask you about Canada's response to foreign interference in Canada by China. This happens to be the day on which the chair of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians appeared before the public safety committee.

Mr. McGuinty presented a report that essentially confirmed what we had heard at this committee from Canadians talking about intimidation, harassment and threats coming from Chinese government agents in Canada. They said they were getting nowhere, a runaround from pillar to post, going to the RCMP, going to local police, being sent to CSIS. CSIS sends them to the RCMP. You don't hear back from them. The report talks about a lack of coordination, about the RCMP resources being focused elsewhere. It talks about the need for reviewing and upgrading legislation to fill in the gaps. It talks about a failure to have proper resources directed to this effort.

This report was filed with the government on August 30, 2019, so the government had time to do something about it. From our debate last week in the House of Commons and the motion, does the government have a plan to actually fix those problems, focus on the proper response to foreign interference in Canada, particularly with respect to Chinese Canadians or other foreign nationals in Canada? Is that something that's going to happen very soon, and will we be hearing about it?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

As we would all agree, there's no higher duty than the safety and security of Canadians. We take any allegations of foreign interference in Canada by state and non-state actors very seriously. This is something you heard from the Minister of Public Safety. We already have measures in place, but that's also a dynamic situation that we're always looking at.

I'm happy the member mentioned a number of recommendations formulated by the committee. I will certainly be looking into that. This is an evolving situation. It's an evolving threat, and we need to provide an appropriate response to protect Canadians. Any Canadians who feel any threat, any form of intimidation, should make sure they file a report and contact their local police force to make sure this is properly recorded and investigated. Those who commit—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

If I may interrupt, Minister, the report states that it has only been recently identified by Public Safety Canada, and there has been a dedication of resources to the issue of foreign interference. We're late in the game. There seems to be a lack of commitment, and this has been known by the government for some time. It was a year or 15 months ago, so “we're working on it” is not good enough if people are being intimidated, pressured, and don't have anywhere to go. They are now complaining to our committee.

Is there a specific program you can announce within the 30-day limit? Obviously, you must have been working on it. Your government must have been working on it for the last 15 months.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I was very clear on that. This is an evolving situation. We have a number of measures in place. As you said, the agencies of Canada are all seized with it, whether it's CSIS or CSE. Everyone is very seized with this matter.

This is not unique to Canada, for Canadians watching at home. This is something we've seen with other Five Eyes partners. We're making sure we coordinate and co-operate, and certainly, the message that needs to be brought to Canadians is that we'll take all the appropriate measures. We are seized with this matter.

We will consider, obviously, the recommendations in the report, and we will make sure we put all the resources in place to protect the security and safety of Canadians.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Minister, a lot of people have been concerned in recent months about the actions of the United States, and in particular the sense that the American government was about to engage in some sort of long-term cold war with China, with a significant confrontational approach including a long range of policy areas, trade sanctions, technology security and other sanctions as well. The language and approach were rather aggressive, and potentially could lead to a long-term standoff between China and the United States. There was concern that Canada would fall in line behind that.

What do you think of the situation unfolding in the U.S. now, with the change in administration? Do you think there will be a change in that approach, and have you had any discussions? I'm assuming your government will soon be discussing what the approach will be with the new administration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You have eight seconds, Minister.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to be as good as you suggest, but I did not hear the question. I don't know if it was only my computer, but the computers in this room were frozen, so I only—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm going to ask Mr. Harris to summarize the question, if he doesn't mind.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Yes, thank you, Chair.

The question is this. The American approach, under the Trump administration, has been rather aggressive towards China, with the concerns about a new cold war, with uncertain consequences. Do you think that the new administration in the United States would have a different approach, and what do you think is going to happen as a result?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Please give a very brief answer.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I think the world has seen that there is a certain economic decoupling in technology between the United States and China. What I will say, Mr. Chair, is that we will continue to coordinate with our Five Eyes partners. We have done so since the beginning. As I said, China is one of the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you. I think we'd better stop. We're well over Mr. Harris's time. I'm sorry, Mr. Harris.

Now we'll go on to the second round.

Mr. Chong, you have five minutes, please.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Minister, in your opening statement, you mentioned that China's bank loans raise concerns about debt sustainability. Others have used the term “debt diplomacy”. Part of the debt instruments that China is using to project its power strategically through the Asia-Indo-Pacific is the China-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. It's an instrumental part of their strategy in the region. It's something that the Government of Canada has joined and contributed hundreds of millions of dollars to.

Will the government withdraw from this strategic initiative in light of the government's reset on China relations?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, I think you'd have to go to the purpose of the bank. Canada is part of a number of multilateral financial institutions. The work of the institution that the member referred to is to help some of the poorest countries in the Asia-Pacific to build economic development and ensure that they will have the capabilities to overcome some of the challenges they have. It's both social and economic development. It's really about the work being done that is making a difference on the ground.

I'm sure the member will be with me to say that Canada should be part of alleviating some of these challenges that are faced by some of the poorest countries, because that's where the projects have been realized.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Minister, just a week ago, China signed a blockbuster trade agreement, the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, with 14 other countries. This is a strategic challenge to the trans-Pacific partnership to which Canada is a party. Seeing that the government is coming forward with a new framework on China, and seeing that there are significant Canadian resources in trade offices and trade commissioners in China, will the Canadian government shift its resources away from our missions in China to other Canadian missions in countries like Japan, Malaysia, Australia and New Zealand—all members of the trans-Pacific partnership—in order to broaden and deepen trade ties with those countries, as opposed to China?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

That's a very good point. I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chong, for that.

I think that Canada's signing of the CPTPP will go down in history as one of the most strategic moves that Canada has made, because we're the second-largest economy now in that bloc of countries that wants to trade on the basis of values and principles and strengthen the international base order.

To your question, I think what we need to do now is to complement our missions, because we want to take advantage.... We know that the economic growth is in the east. I think the CPTPP gives us an opportunity to do that. I think we need to diversify also within China, and outside China continue the trade that is going on. I think the CPTPP is providing an instrument that is proving very useful for Canadian small and medium-sized businesses across the country.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Minister, Germany recently labelled China as a strategic rival. Will your new framework do the same?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I think we have to distinguish a number of things. There will be areas where we'll need to challenge China, and I think you would agree with that, for example, when it comes to human rights. There will be areas where we will compete, based on values and principles and the model of governance we see. As well, there will probably be areas where we'll need to co-operate if we want to accelerate, for example, the fight against climate change.

It's more a framework in which we'll have to distinguish in our bilateral relationship the types of tools we'll need to use in order to advance Canadian interests, values and principles.