Evidence of meeting #15 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
7:25 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
If you look at testimony before the national defence committee and you ask some of the commanders involved with NORAD, I think you will get substantiation that this was a test of our system.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
You say Beijing invests heavily to make influential opinion leaders beholden to the PRC. Who, where, how much, when and have they had a chance to defend themselves?
7:25 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
I think I've provided some evidence here from Australia that is publicly known. There are other cases—
7:25 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
—from other countries that I could provide to you, and I have first-hand experience as I provide in the testimony.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
You say that Canadian academics have been offered thousands of dollars to co-publish. Do you know of authors who have accepted that money and have been influenced to publish?
7:25 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
I do. I will not name those individuals here publicly.
I would suggest that you look at people who copublish with people in China. That gives you at least somewhat of an indication of some of the individuals, and then look at their rather sympathetic views on China in this country.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
You say that “the PRC pays off politicians”. That is a very strong accusation. That is an illegal activity on both sides. Are you prepared to name them?
7:25 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
I would have to say that we have evidence in Canada of flows of money to political organizations through questionable channels and particular candidates. These are patterns that are replicated in other allied countries.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
I would actually like to know which politicians are being paid off. You say, “In the same way, the PRC pays off politicians.” It is illegal in Canada to receive, to offer or to give. In three ways, it's illegal.
If you have evidence, have you taken it to the RCMP?
7:25 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
I would suggest to you that, in my testimony, I provide two open-source cases from Australia—
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
No, I'm talking about Canada. This is a Canadian House of Commons committee. Is it something they do in Canada?
7:25 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Well, if we had a federal police force that was effective in investigating this, I think it would see cases like this in this country.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Hmm. So, no. The answer you're giving me is that, no, you don't have evidence. That is fine.
7:25 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
We have institutions that do not follow through on their mandates for national security.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
There are aspersions dotted all throughout your testimony to us. I think it would be very helpful to know exactly what the effect has been, the success from interference by the Chinese government in Canada. What legislation, what policies, what regulations, what have...? If they have invested this much money, where has it been successful? Could you give me some examples of where they've been successful in their heavy paying out of politicians? Where has it been successful?
7:30 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
As I name in my testimony, it is with regard to some resource development in this country. We know that China is not the only actor that invests in information campaigns with regard to resource development in one way or another in this country. I also, again, provide evidence from Australia with regard to links that subsequently appeared that were proven so problematic that people opted out of public life.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.
I'll now go to Monsieur Trudel for five—pardon me, two and a half minutes.
7:30 p.m.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Leuprecht, we get the feeling that Canada is an absolutely incredible Swiss cheese. In the last few weeks, a number of incidents have been reported. Balloons have flown over Canada and the United States. From what we know, one balloon was shot down, but we don't really know what happened in the case of the other balloons.
There is talk of direct interference in Canadian elections and of Chinese police stations set up in Canada. A few weeks ago, representatives of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP, told us that the RCMP was not aware that there were Chinese police stations in Quebec. Three weeks ago, before it was reported in the media, I asked a member of the RCMP a question, but his answer was that he was not aware of these incidents. Either he was lying or he really didn't know, which really is concerning.
There is also talk of the arrest of a spy at Hydro-Québec, who was working in the development of electrical technology such as motors and batteries, a very important field that will be critical in the years to come. What we are hearing is incredible and concerning.
What is Canada not doing? Conversely, what could Canada do, right now, to make sure this doesn't happen again?
7:30 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
First, the federal police would have to focus its resources on its federal mandate. At present, the RCMP dedicates 85% of its resources and efforts to provincial, territorial and local policing, at the expense of its federal mandate.
Second, Canada is the only G7 country that has no foreign human intelligence gathering service. There is a foreign intelligence gathering service provided by the Communications Security Establishment, or CSE, but there is no human intelligence gathering service. What that means is that we are virtually blind in one eye, because the foreign activities of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS, are very limited.
To understand what hostile countries are doing in our own country, we must also necessarily understand their activities outside Canada. At present, there are no such measures in place. Over the last 30 years, it seems that no government was prepared to make that kind of investment.
