Canada-China Relations Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Chan, is that the same experience for your community as well?

[Henry Chan]

Yes, in the Hong Kong community, very few people use those devices.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

For those who are on it, do they sometimes save a picture and send it to you or to community members? I've had people send me posters of CCP events that have been circulated now. Unfortunately, it's all in Chinese, so I can't read them. I ask others who can read them. These are all very recent events. They're being put on to talk about very specific things that are being pushed around and have a very specific political message intended in them. Do your community members share that, or do they censor themselves?

I'll let Mr. Chan go first and then I'll go to Ms. Fung.

[Henry Chan]

I think one thing they saw in using those applications is that a lot of the people who use those applications only speak Chinese. They could only get news or whatever from those sources. Another benefit they have is that people who do not speak Chinese cannot oversee those.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Ms. Fung.

[Gloria Fung]

Yes, because of the language barrier, the majority of mainland Chinese Canadians get the information from WeChat or maybe their free community newspaper, or even some of the social media platforms such as YorkBBS or QQ, etc. It's exactly this pattern that gives the opportunity to CCP to manipulate, and to spread disinformation campaigns very effectively. This is something our government also needs to pay attention to.

Apart from banning TikTok, how are we going to deal with WeChat? This also becomes a means of spreading this disinformation campaign in Canada.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

In your interactions with the police services in Canada—whether it's provincial, municipal or federal—do you think they have the necessary language and cultural skills to understand information they're obtaining from community members who are reporting things like intimidation, bullying and random protests at their workplace?

I had a priest come up to me in Vancouver and tell me that he had whom he believes was a CCP agent come during mass service, taking pictures of parishioners and then leaving. That's technically not a crime. He didn't interrupt the service; he just took pictures. How would they report that?

Do you have confidence that our police services have the language and cultural skills to understand what's going on?

[Gloria Fung]

I think it's not only confined to the limits of language—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'm sorry.

Mr. Chan, I'll go to you.

[Gloria Fung]

I'm sorry.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It's tough with the virtual and in- person switching.

[Henry Chan]

Regarding the priest you talked about, I actually went with him to see his MP. I think it was Kerry-Lynne Findlay. She asked the question of the public safety minister, and, if I remember correctly, he said to talk to the RCMP. The RCMP said there was really nothing they could do and directed us back to Ottawa. We go to Ottawa and they tell us to go to the RCMP. It's a loop.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay.

Ms. Fung.

[Gloria Fung]

I had exactly the same experience. I think it reflects a few problems here.

One is that our enforcement departments, including the police and the RCMP, do not have the necessary expertise and knowledge about foreign interference. Therefore, we need to make sure they are being educated. There probably should at least be some kind of exchange or training workshop to bring up their level of understanding, so they know exactly what to do when they are being asked to investigate these police stations.

Two is that the language skills are very limited. The majority of them do not speak Mandarin, Cantonese nor Fujanese. That's why I asked for the enhancement of the capacity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Ehsassi for five minutes or less.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to thank the two witnesses. This has been very helpful.

I find it very disturbing, Ms. Fung, that you have been harassed on Canadian soil. That is truly unacceptable.

Was I correct in understanding that you said previously that it was very difficult to file reports and they would constantly ask you for evidence, but since the integrated team at the RCMP was established, things have improved...I hope?

[Gloria Fung]

Yes, but it was also because we took the initiative to ask Global Affairs Canada to arrange for an RCMP integrated national security enforcement team to meet with us.

I raised concerns. I also challenged why, after we have been complaining and complaining for decades, not even a single agent has been charged or convicted. It shows how ineffective we have been in combatting foreign interference.

Now I think the situation has improved a bit. It's a good sign, but it's not enough yet.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

That's absolutely understood.

I've also heard people say that maybe there should be dedicated lines, so that the same officials are receiving complaints from members of their community. Would that be, in your opinion, an effective initiative?

[Gloria Fung]

I think that is a good idea. The same principle should also apply to CSIS.

I have been meeting with CSIS to advise them about foreign interference. From time to time, new people are sent to talk to me and every time I have to restart the education process. This is unacceptable.

For the RCMP, I think you have raised a very good point. If there are a few people who are dedicated, for instance, to liaison with the diaspora community, they can build up their expertise and knowledge.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Absolutely. That's understood. Thank you very much for that.

Now I will go to Mr. Chan, if I could.

With respect to the gentleman that you cited in your opening remarks who had been coerced, we've heard they sent pictures. In that particular case of the gentleman who was in Saskatchewan—because I really find this riveting—do you know what kind of coercion was used to ensure he would return to China?

[Henry Chan]

There were two tactics that I cited. One was constant phone call bombardment, just calling you and telling you awkward stuff, probably even in the middle of the night. The second one is sending you pictures of your extended family. In his case, he was in China; therefore, his family was in China.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

That's understood. Thank you.

Towards the end of your opening remarks, you said that, instead of being reactive, our government should be proactive. What did you mean by that? Could you elaborate on that?

[Henry Chan]

If I may use a quote for that, I think somebody once said that the Communist wakes up early in the morning to further their cause, so we must wake up even earlier.

Before they even intrude on our sovereignty, on our democracy, we have to find a policy to basically tell them that they can't do that, or even just a show of force that we are not weak on this and that we will take action if they attempt to interfere in our elections or our democratic institutions.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

I understand, MP Yip, that you wanted the last minute.

No, okay. That's fine.

I was wondering if I could also ask for your comments with respect to the press and media as well. Did that also influence elections or politicians, in your opinion?

[Gloria Fung]

Is that a question for me?