Canada-China Relations Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Henry Chan]

Well, because I've only been in Canada since 2008, I can't speak that far back. From my research, I've been seeing the CSIS reports. Even back to the late 1990s, it's been warning about foreign interference. I'll probably let other witnesses speak on this issue.

[Gloria Fung]

Yes, intimidation and harassment operated by the CCP have been occurring for decades. I came to Canada in 1989, right after the Tiananmen massacre. Ever since then, I have continued to get myself involved here in the pro-democracy movement. I always participate in rallies and marches. Dating back to 1990, every time that we stage our peaceful demonstrations, maybe in front of the Chinese consulate, there are people taking photos of us from a very close distance. This is very intimidating. They are actually sending a strong signal to us: “We are watching you. We are taking pictures of you. You'd better watch.”

Then, in recent years, they have stepped up the level and magnitude of intimidation and harassment. On August 17, 2019, when we were hosting a peaceful demonstration, hundreds of mainly Chinese students and also members of the United Front organization surrounded us, blocking our way from starting our peaceful march. When we sang the Canadian anthem, they sang the Chinese anthem. They even tried to grab our flags and attack us. They've become more and more aggressive in intimidating and also jeopardizing Canadians' right of freedom of expression.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Is there a difference in how the various Chinese communities—mainland, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese—feel impacted by foreign interference, Mr. Chan?

[Henry Chan]

In terms of the different Chinese diaspora communities, I think they do all have a sense.... If they're against the government, essentially, there is a terror that they're going to be attacked by the regime somehow. That paints, I think, a terror on people's minds, that, “I dare not say this in public. I dare not say this even on Canadian soil.” It is, I think, very problematic that they're not even able to express their own views, when they're out of the country, to criticize the regime. Whenever they criticize the regime, they feel that there is a threat of probably never being able to return back to their country or of their family's being affected if they have family there still.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Ms. Fung.

[Gloria Fung]

Among the various diaspora communities you mentioned, the mainland Chinese community members are, by far, the most vulnerable members of our community. They have been subject to very serious threats, intimidation and harassment from the CCP.

It's mainly because the national security and also public safety departments of China will hold their family members back home as hostages, forcing them—

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

How can we encourage the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

I'm sorry, Ms. Yip. You are out of time.

We'll go now to Mr. Trudel for two and a half minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are learning new things every day about how the Chinese government does things. There is interference in federal elections, and we have learned that there was interference in municipal elections. I talked about that earlier. We don't know, but there has probably been interference in provincial elections.

We know that the Chinese police stations are often welcome centres for immigrants where various assistance is offered to immigrants. The representative of the Fundacion Safeguard Defenders told us about this. They are given food, clothing, advice, legal assistance, and so on. Bit by bit, it morphs into a police station and a Chinese government intelligence centre.

Three weeks ago, during a meeting of this committee, I asked a representative of the RCMP whether that organization had intelligence to show that service centres helping the Chinese population in Brossard or Montreal were police stations. We are talking about the Chinese Family Service of Greater Montreal and the Centre Sino-Québec on the south shore, which are centres that provide assistance to the Chinese community in Montreal.

The representative of the RCMP said that that organization had no information to say that those centres were Chinese police stations. That was unequivocal, three weeks ago. One week ago, it appeared on page one of theJournal de Montréal. Not only are these both Chinese police stations, but the person who manages those two police stations is now a municipal councillor in Brossard. She was helped by the Chinese government, which posted messages on the WeChat platform. That is a bit troubling.

Mr. Chan or Ms. Fung, have you heard about there being Chinese police stations in Saskatchewan, and that candidates in municipal elections supported by China have been elected in your communities?

[Gloria Fung]

Maybe I can start first.

I have been observing and collecting data on foreign interference in elections at three levels of government over the last three decades. I have also served as a political commentator on this particular topic.

I have witnessed a growing level of interference from CCP over the last 30 years. Now they have not only interfered with municipal elections, but it has also occurred in provincial elections and then, last of all, at the federal level of elections. I don't want to go into all of the details, because I believe that the CSIS report or many of the media reports have already covered it.

However, based on our observation, the United Front organizations have been playing a very important role in channelling financial subsidies from the Chinese embassy or maybe directly from the United Front Work Department of China to their preferred candidates. I have seen banquets being filled with all of these people. They ask their individual members to donate to the preferred candidates in order to ensure their winnability. A number of years ago—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

I'm sorry to interrupt, ma'am.

We have to now move to Ms. McPherson for two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ms. Fung, you just spoke a little bit about the fact that you've been investigating election interference over the past 30 years. As you know, there's a large focus right now in this country on the 2019 and the 2021 elections.

Would it be your opinion that we should be looking further back than that? Should we be looking at elections prior to those two, at the 2015 election and previous ones?

[Gloria Fung]

I would say the United Front organizations started to be established under the help and the guidance of the Chinese embassy beginning in the 1990s. Then, I think up to the year 2000, when they had developed a good enough number of United Front organizations—and also with the growing, critical mass of mainland Chinese Canadians in Canada—they started to become more and more aggressive in infiltrating the elections of the three levels of government.

There's a gradual evolution of the magnitude of infiltration and manipulation. It's the same with the intimidation and harassment.

I think now we have already reached a point that our democracy is actually being jeopardized and compromised. If our government doesn't take immediate action and take this matter seriously, it's very dangerous, because it will also ruin our relationship of trust with our democratic allies.

Remember, we are part of the Five Eyes allies. We are also very close partners with the U.S. If our country has become compromised—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm very sorry to interrupt you. I'm going to run out of time.

Very quickly, did you let prior governments know about your worries, your concerns, about interference?

[Gloria Fung]

We've been talking about this threat for decades.

In 2017 and 2020—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Again, Madam, I'm going to have to interrupt.

Maybe you can give a yes or no answer to Ms. McPherson's question. Did you let previous governments know?

[Gloria Fung]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Okay, thank you.

Now we will go to Mr. Kmiec for five minutes or less.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is on the police stations the CCP has here in Canada through these four subnational governments. Do any of your community members actually use these police stations in any way, or do you know of any members who do go to them?

[Henry Chan]

I don't know of any.

[Gloria Fung]

No. I haven't heard of anybody who has gone to the police station to seek services. I think that the so-called provision of services is just a camouflage.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay. I'm guessing you and your community members, though, are on WeChat and Weibo. You probably have community members—

[Gloria Fung]

No.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Don't you use them at all on your personal devices?

[Gloria Fung]

I think among Hong Kong Canadians, we are very cautious. Very few of us will use WeChat or TikTok, etc., because we all know that the CCP is behind them. We don't want to be tracked down where we are, particularly after the imposition of the national security law.