Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

That's a problem for me personally, in a sense. It has some other contextual meanings to it, so it's a confusion for me. Sometimes words mean a lot of different things. That one is an issue for me.

You talked about universities. Would you see universities directly applying for money or would it have to be in a tripartite agreement?

[Stephen Gagnon]

I think we need to have further discussions with our partners on that. I can tell you that when we were doing the cross-country engagement this summer, there was a willingness, I think, for people to tap into the expertise that universities have, but there was also occasionally a fear expressed that if the indigenous organizations or communities aren't directly involved, they sometimes might not get the long-term benefits of the creation of a lexicon, for example, if things become copyrighted or proprietary.

I guess if you were to ask me where I think I would lean, I would say—and we were told fairly bluntly by some people—that it's not that we shouldn't be working with the universities, but that it should be the choice of the indigenous groups to do that and not be imposed by government.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

The other piece I would go to is about a different kind of funding. We talked about this a little bit in the break.

I have Siksika in my riding. There are 8,000 people in that band. It's very large and they do a lot of different things. I know of a couple of other very small bands. It's the same with the municipalities in the sense that the big ones have shovel-ready projects on the shelf. They have the manpower to put the paperwork to you. Those tiny ones don't.

How are you going to make up for that difference? They're not going to show up at your door with any kind of paperwork, because they don't have the ability to do it, but they need it.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

You're making a very important point that it's not an easy balance. I think if we work on perpetuating the project-driven type of funding, we will actually enhance that polarization between the ones that have less capacity and the ones that have more. We will of course cater to the ones that are actually already well structured and all that, but we will also make an effort to reach out to the ones that have less capacity.

From that perspective, this is where the NIOs can be very helpful. They can actually help provide the support to make sure that we can very quickly reach agreements with the smaller organizations in a way that actually is meaningful for them, because this is where the risk is the highest, quite frankly. The self-governing nations that are already well structured or the school boards that have already gathered together among various band councils already have a critical mass and a certain capacity, and I have no doubt that they're going to reach out to us, and we're going to be able to work with them and not have difficulty in having them define their needs, and then off we will go.

In partnership with the commissioner—because that's also going to be a role of the commissioner—we need to make sure that we don't perpetuate the handout of us, Heritage, going to them and telling them how to have their language survive. The partnership with the commissioner, from that perspective, will be very important, because they can play a very critical role in helping, maybe providing templates of things, or disseminating best practices so that in turn we can say, “Yes, this has potential; here's the funding; off you go,” either with the help of the NIOs, if that's their choice—those are the national organizations like the AFN and others—or with the help of the office of the commissioner.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you. I think that is a piece, when we're talking about some of the rarer and smaller languages out there. If we don't find a way to do that, they're going to be lost in 10 years anyway.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

It could be less than that.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You well know what my belief was about bureaucracy when I was a mayor and the CAO would say that we needed to expand a department. The answer was, “Which staff are you going to get rid of?” We wouldn't add on. They would have to make a decision. We'd say, “Here are the bucks.”

The last thing I want to see is more than 0.5% being spent on bureaucracy, or we're wasting this money.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I can tell you that that was quite forcefully explained to us by our partners, and I'm saying that very humbly. You will have Mr. Bellegarde here, and you will probably want to ask him about the discussion we had about that.

We definitely were committed to actually implementing the calls for action, which included a call for an office of a commissioner. We were very clear in our conversation with the partners that we didn't want to create a ballooning bureaucracy through that. They told us that very clearly but, at the same time, I think they see the potential in having a third party that is not the government assisting particularly the more vulnerable communities in the journey of revitalization and promotion.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Mr. Hogg, go ahead, please.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

I have gone quickly through the bill to get a better grasp of it, and I noticed the references to UNDRIP twice in the preamble and then again in the purposes of the act, in paragraph 5(g). Then, when you go to clause 6, under “Rights Related to Indigenous Languages”, it's not mentioned there. Is it intended to be there or should we be taking the title “Rights Related to Indigenous Languages” out so that there seems to be a stronger correlation between UNDRIP and the initiatives that are talked about in the preamble?

Maybe you could explain to me why it is separate.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

The UNDRIP is an international instrument, as you know, and it has very clear definition of a series of objectives that pertain to languages. As with any international instrument, it needs to be operationalized in domestic law.

The reference in the preamble and purposes of the act lay the groundwork to say that this bill is an expression of a segment of the implementation of UNDRIP. It doesn't pertain to the implementation of all the obligations in UNDRIP, because there are many others that don't pertain to languages.

The reason for the reference to section 35 is that it's another layer of fundamental rights that we and our partners felt needed to be recognized there. It's a bit like a funnel. You have the broad international obligations that are filtered through our Constitution and become du droit normatif, as we say in French, or specific obligations that are provided for in the legislation. It's a structure for going from the most general to the specifics of our Constitution, and then to the obligations that are laid out.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

So you feel it's accurately reflected in clause 6 as well.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Yes, definitely.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

If there is a conflict, they will come back to the minutes of this meeting to ensure that it's there. Hopefully, we'll be able to review that.

I have a second question.

Clauses 1 through 11 are about the values and the organizational structure. Clauses 12 through 30 are on the office of the commissioner of indigenous languages, and its operational part. There's an enormous amount that is vested in the commissioner's responsibilities. I think there can be three directors.

Can you tell us how the commissioner and the directors will be appointed? Who will have responsibility for that? As I read this, it seems to me they will have a profound impact in terms of the interpretation. The values are laid out, but they're the ones who make it all operational—the people they appeal to and all the challenges associated with that.

Then the final part, clauses 43 through 49, are a shared thing, where the minister puts out an annual report.

Clauses 12 through 30 are significant, and they all relate to the commissioner of indigenous languages and that office. Who will be in that office? How will they get there? How will they carry out their responsibilities?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

They will be appointed by Governor in Council, based on consultations, as we mentioned earlier, with a variety of indigenous groups—I will not say “diverse”; I will say “a variety”—in order to make sure the commissioner is acceptable to indigenous people.

The commissioner will be supported by three directors who will also be appointed by Governor in Council to represent a distinction base: one that will be first nations specific, one Métis and one Inuit. They will each hold office at pleasure for five years, and they will act fully independently.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Sorry, my time is running out.

Will they be nominated from across indigenous peoples? Will each be putting forward a name and the Governor in Council will make a decision?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

The minister will be in charge of consulting to come up with a short list and a recommendation to the Governor in Council.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

There are terms of reference as to what those people's skills will be, their background, or the support of their communities.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

That's right, bearing in mind that the commissioner will be the CEO of that organization, while the directors will have the function of supporting, on a distinction base, the various groups—first nations, Métis or Inuit.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I'm assuming that the commissioner and the three others will be indigenous people. Or are you saying that's not...?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I think that's probably a given.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

It's probably a given?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I don't want to state that, because it's going to be based on the consultation. Some people may decide that the person doesn't have to be indigenous, but I think most likely they will be.

For example with the tax commission, from which some of the obligations have been borrowed, the leadership is all indigenous.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I have one really fast question. I'll go really quickly.