Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2021

[Amar Wala]

If I may jump in here, it is a huge undertaking, and frankly, the responsibility to create these roles and solve these problems cannot fall back on racialized communities. This is a problem that the industry has to solve. This is a problem that the industry has been ignoring for far too long. We've heard the stories about the CRTC and other organizations being overwhelmed for far too long, frankly. This cannot take a backseat to other priorities.

With our industry, because so much of what we do is funded by the Canadian taxpayer, we do a tremendous amount of tracking of things already. We track where money is being spent. We ensure that it's not being spent on foreign producers or foreign crew, for example. We do a tremendous amount of monitoring as it is.

This is definitely doable, if the will to do this is really there. It is a problem that the community can consult on, but this is not a problem that the community can solve. The industry must figure out how to solve this issue. We are very ready to work with them to make sure that the process goes well and to ensure that community consultation is a priority in solving those issues.

It's not going to be a one-time fix. This is going to be an organic process that takes many years and, frankly, we're going to screw up a little bit and have to fix those problems over time. The most important thing is that we engage in that process and that everybody agrees this is important and that we're ready to begin that work.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you.

I'm going to move on to the Canadian Media Producers Association.

I have heard from various groups in this country that intellectual property is the hill to die on. You invest so much money into your product, and then when it does get accepted by the Internet giants, you have no say in it. That seems a little odd. You did touch quite a bit in your proposal to us today on Canadian Heritage....

How may we correct this in the broadcast bill? You put the money out front, you do all the work behind the scenes, hoping someone is going to pick up your product, and when they do, they essentially become the owners of the product and you're the employees. That seems a little far-fetched to me, and it is a concern in this bill.

Could one of you talk about that?

[Reynolds Mastin]

I'm going to turn it over to Damon to give a concrete example of what happens when a producer is able to meaningfully hold on to their IP, but first, just to speak to the specific solution we're proposing, what we would propose is an amendment to Bill C-10 that would empower the CRTC to require codes of practice between independent producers on the one hand and foreign streaming services and Canadian broadcasters on the other hand.

We do not prescribe anything in this proposed amendment in terms of what those codes of practice would look like. We believe that's best worked out by the industry players themselves, with the CRTC being the final authority to make sure that this actually happens.

Damon, can you speak a bit about the power, essentially, of driving growth for your company and the industry when you're able to hold onto your IP?

[Damon D'Oliveira]

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for your question.

I can speak to a recent production of mine, The Book of Negroes, which is based on a wonderful piece of IP, the novel written by Lawrence Hill, and which my company was able to option in 2009. We proceeded to make it into a television miniseries for the CBC. It went to air in 2015 as a six-part miniseries.

We retained control of that. We were able to sell American rights to BET, the Black Entertainment Television network. We made this as an international co-production with South African partners and we controlled the IP along the way, as the underlying holders of the rights to the book—

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. D'Oliveira. I'm sorry. I have to cut it right there. We're past time for the individual question. You can probably work that in a bit later during the testimony.

Mrs. Bessette, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses for joining us today.

My first question is for the representatives from the Canadian Media Producers Association (CMPA).

Bill C-10 seeks to somewhat level the playing field between the major content distribution companies and our independent Canadian producers.

Ms. Haskett and gentlemen, can you tell us more about the reality and challenges of the small producers you represent?

[Reynolds Mastin]

Thank you very much for the question.

In the typical negotiation, particularly those that our smaller members encounter when they're negotiating with a streamer or a broadcaster, they are increasingly expected to essentially hand over all the rights to that piece of IP they have developed with Canadian creators and to the associated revenues. In certain cases, they're even asked to make an “organ donation”, to quote a former head of the AQPM, just to underscore the point.

What that essentially means is that over time it reduces our entire sector into a purely service-based industry, where essentially we're a branch plant of Hollywood, which of course is exactly why we have the Canadian Broadcasting Act and Canadian cultural policy—to prevent that from taking place.

Not only do we need to ensure we have rules that ensure reinvestment by the foreign streaming services into the Canadian industry, but we also have to make sure that the investment is fully leveraged so that producers are then able to hold on to some of their IP and the revenues associated with that and to reinvest those revenues in developing new great Canadian shows with Canadian creators. It's that virtuous cycle that we're trying to achieve through this proposed amendment of codes of practice.

Erin, could you speak a bit to this as well, please, just in terms of the importance of having the ability to have those revenues to invest in future projects?

[Erin Haskett]

Thanks, Reynolds.

With regard to this, especially for the smaller companies or the start-up companies that are just emerging in our industry, owning the IP is crucial to being able to build infrastructure and a development slate, and invest in future projects and new talent.

For us, we had a series early in the inception of our company, called Motive, which was a CTV series that was internationally financed by NBC International and aired on ABC. Because of the regulation at the time, we had control of the IP. It allowed us, through distribution revenues, to reinvest in our slate and has I think put us in a really favourable position to be able to succeed in this premium content world, especially as the streamers are coming into Canada.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for the representatives from the Racial Equity Media Collective.

Ms. Barsoum, Mr. Wala, I applaud the important work you are doing to strengthen the voices that have long been underrepresented in our media.

Can you briefly tell us about your work and the sorts of projects you help to promote?

[Amar Wala]

I can start the answer and, Sherien, please free free to add on.

The REMC came together as a group of working filmmakers and producers who, frankly, felt that the lip service we were getting from the industry around racial equity was not matching up with our lived experience as creators and not matching up with the lived experience of our communities.

We really felt that the only way to bridge that disconnect was through the use of data in order to really get a sense of where we stand as an industry when it comes to the production of BIPOC-owned content, and also the hiring and labour of BIPOC crew members.

A lot of our projects and a lot of our focus really is on using data to fill in these gaps, to identify where those gaps are and to suggest policy changes, because we're really not in a position to make those changes ourselves but need to work with the industry in order to fill in those holes. One of our first projects, for example, is a road map on what the collection of data in the industry looks like right now.

I should say that currently data is collected. It's just collected in a, frankly, very haphazard and sloppy way. It's collected in a very oftentimes dangerous way in that producers are often signing on as to whether their crew members and whether their hires are under-represented or not. People are not self-identifying. These are major issues.

As creators, what happens is I, for example, as a director am constantly self-identifying as a racialized person on every production I work on for broadcasters, but I don't know where that data goes and I don't know how it's used at the end of the year to really help me and help my community grow.

As I said, our primary objective right now is to really get a scope of data collection, figure out what the problems are and then help the industry create a unified method of tracking race-based data when it comes to funding. Our position is really simple. As Canadians, we have just as much of a right to access this funding as any other community. Unless we know which communities are truly falling behind, we can't create specific programs to support those specific communities.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

I have another quick question if I can, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Go ahead very quickly, madam.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

How can the federal government support your work and fight racism, which still exists in our media industry?

[Sherien Barsoum]

Thank you. It's a great question.

I think the best way to do it is to support the three asks we have just asked for, and I believe the groundwork for these asks is already starting to take place in the amendments that are proposed in the bill, in the fact that the bill starts to recognize racialized communities. We just need it to go further.

The mandatory collection of race-based data will equip the entire industry to see what the problems are and to also monitor how much progress we're making, so when we're back here again, hopefully not 30 years in the future, we can say with confidence these are the very specific steps and this is the progress we have made as a nation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Ms. Barsoum.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

As a reminder, don't forget about our microphones. Thank you.

Now we go to Monsieur Champoux for six minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to our witnesses for appearing today. Once again, our guests' testimony is enriching and extremely important for us as we consider this bill.

I would like to direct my first question to Ms. Stewart from the Canadian Association of Black Journalists.

Ms. Stewart, you talked about the intimidation that some journalists of colour experience in newsrooms. I found that very interesting because I worked in the media industry, particularly in radio, for four decades. I'm sort of competing with my colleague Mr. Waugh for seniority.

At the beginning of my career, it was actually quite rare to have black colleagues. Even the accents, any accent, of hosts and journalists grated on some people. Of course, there has been a lot of progress on that front. I'm surprised to learn that even today people in newsrooms may still be bullied based on colour.

I would like to know whether there have been any complaints about those incidents. Is there a mechanism in place for those being bullied? If so, how have the complaints been received and handled? Have recommendations been put in place in the workplaces where the incidents occurred? If not, I think it would be very important to do so.

Could you comment on that?

[Nadia Stewart]

Thanks so much for the question.

This year and in years past, we have heard Black journalists share the stories of what they have experienced in the newsroom. Within the context of our work at the CABJ, we have been hearing from Black journalists whose stories were either buried, ignored or even, in come cases, denied.

Was there a mechanism by which they could file complaints? In some cases there was and in some cases there wasn't, but at the end of the day, the complaints didn't amount to change. Any concerns that surfaced, based on what we are hearing from Black journalists, did not amount to the kind of change that they wanted to see, which was a decrease in the kind of racism that they were encountering in their newsrooms or within the media companies that they worked for.

I will acknowledge that since June and the conversations we have been having with media companies, we have started to see the beginnings of change. I would say that there is a still quite a long way to go.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I wonder whether you are seeing only the tip of the iceberg. I would imagine that victims of intimidation or discrimination may be reluctant to file a complaint or to follow up, for fear of being subjected to further such behaviour as a result of their complaint.

In a regulatory proposal such as Bill C-10, do you think it would be appropriate to add mechanisms to ensure that such complaints are addressed?

It is not just a matter of asking that the legislation ensure representativeness; it must also include an obligation to set up mechanisms that address unfairness, intimidation and discrimination once and for all.

[Nadia Stewart]

We would definitely welcome any kind of stronger language that would ensure that if some incident of racism in the newsroom surfaces, Black journalists have some kind of assurance that it would be dealt with in a way that's a lot more meaningful than how it has been dealt with in the past.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have a question for the CMPA representatives.

Ms. Haskett, gentlemen, you talked about the issue of Canadian content, and your requests are very similar to those of the Association québécoise de la production médiatique (AQPM), whose representatives appeared before the committee a few weeks ago. You are asking for more original Canadian content. The AQPM is also asking for more original Canadian content in French.

More content also means a greater need for broadcast space. Are you talking to broadcasters about the space they may have to provide if producers are given additional production tools to create more original Canadian content?

What is the general reaction of traditional broadcasters when you tell them that you will be producing more content and that you will be needing more space?

[Reynolds Mastin]

Thank you very much for the question.

We have conversations all the time with our broadcaster partners at both the association level and the producer level. We know that broadcasters are certainly coming before you in certain cases and talking about the need to reduce their regulatory obligations. We obviously have concerns about that, especially because their current obligations are actually quite flexible, even under the current system.

For example, the major vehicle for contribution by broadcasters through CRTC regulation is expenditure requirements. Those expenditure requirements are determined as a percentage of their annual revenues. When their revenues go down, for example—let's say as a result of COVID—the amount of investment they make in the entire system correspondingly goes down. We believe that provides a great deal of flexibility in the system already.

Of course, they appear in front of the CRTC every few years to have their licences renewed. At that time, we and they put arguments and evidence in front of the CRTC to determine what the appropriate obligations are for the next few years. The broadcasters already have those opportunities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Mastin, I appreciate that.

Ms. McPherson, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today and sharing this very important conversation with us as we look at Bill C-10.

I will start, if I may, with Ms. Stewart. I want to dig in a little bit about why it is so important that we address the failure to gather race-based data, and why it's so important that these voices of BIPOC people are elevated, and why this bill has an important role to play.

I'm from Edmonton Strathcona, one of the ridings in Edmonton that actually has the very sad story of having many racial incidents over the past several months, with many of them against Black Muslim women.

Could you talk a little about what it would mean to have more Black journalists telling stories? Had more of the content creators been from the BIPOC community, how would that help in terms of combatting some of the increases in racism and white supremacy that we are seeing in our communities, in Edmonton Strathcona, in particular?