Canadian Heritage Committee on March 26th, 2021

[Catherine Edwards]

They don't have a single, national community media association. We discussed this with the Assembly of First Nations before. They told us at one point that they had in the ballpark of 60 indigenous community radio broadcasters, although my board member from Saskatchewan says there are over 50 in Saskatchewan alone.

Some of them are our members. We have one in Manitoulin Island, for example, that is a local journalism initiative. Missinipi Broadcasting in northern Saskatchewan is a member. We're becoming aware of them, and they are becoming aware of us, slowly. They are becoming aware, I think, that by joining together we gain a stronger voice, which Alex and I are using today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to Madame Bessette.

Mrs. Bessette, you have six minutes.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being with us today.

My questions will be for our guests from CACTUS. The committee has heard from representatives from both the public and private elements, but I think the community element is perhaps less well known.

Can you tell us a bit about the role that community media plays in the lives of Canadians, particularly in rural areas, like the one I represent?

[Catherine Edwards]

During our presentation, Mr. Freedman mentioned the three biggest roles that community media play.

First, they represent the communities. The public and private elements are located in areas with a population of over 100,000. Almost all the licensees are in fairly large communities, whereas we can serve communities with as few as 500 homes. So it's about giving a voice to communities in northern, indigenous or rural areas.

Second, they give a voice to minorities. Even in urban areas, there is a need for community television and radio to give a voice to official language minority communities and groups with simply different interests, such as the LGBTQ+ community, for instance.

Third, it's a platform for launching new careers and developing digital skills. Without training, you can't file a tax return online or express yourself in a digital environment as a for-profit or not-for-profit organization.

It's about these three things: they represent communities, they give a voice to minorities, and they give people digital skills.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

You also represent the not-for-profit community element.

Is there a for-profit community element?

[Catherine Edwards]

In the past, cable companies handled the budget and administration of the community element, but it was administered differently in Quebec. In Quebec, not-for-profit organizations—there are 40 of them—produce content, but they don't have a licence. They give their content to cable companies for distribution.

Outside of Quebec, it developed differently. It was a service within the cable company that handled it. Gradually, these large companies became connected by fibre optics and they simply closed these small stations. Of the few remaining stations, such as Rogers TV in Ottawa, most have become community platforms with the same name. In our opinion, if we want to keep the few remaining channels, a special local licence would be preferable to a community platform.

For a community to develop its voice, it must play a greater role in administration and programming. This is really not possible when it's a board of directors that's accountable to shareholders.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

The brief you submitted to the committee indicates that the regulations surrounding the funding of the community element are a failure. In your opinion, too little revenue from broadcasting distribution undertakings goes to the community element.

How much money do you receive from broadcasting distribution undertakings right now?

[Catherine Edwards]

That's a question you should ask the representatives of the Fédération des télévisions communautaires autonomes du Québec, or TCA, who appeared before the committee two weeks ago. The CRTC only recommended that Quebec cable companies give them something, and that recommendation was made behind closed doors. So there is no specific recommendation in that regard. The 40 TCAs in Quebec receive 10% of what cable companies spend on their own production. So it's very little.

Outside Quebec, there is no demand for cable companies to contribute to non-profit community television. That's why there are only 25 in the rest of Canada. It's really difficult to reopen these stations once they have been shut down by the cable companies.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

I assume you've read the first version of the order that has been enacted by the CRTC and made public a few weeks ago. What is your reaction to this version of the order? What changes would you like to see?

[Catherine Edwards]

What part are you referring to in particular?

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

The part that relates to the community element.

[Catherine Edwards]

Honestly, I haven't read the part that deals with the community element. I'll take the time to do so and provide you with my answer response after the meeting, if you wish.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

That's fine.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, I have no more questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking the witnesses for being with us today. It's always very interesting to hear what they have to say.

Mr. Payette, thank you for your opening remarks. I don't want to make a pun or a lame connection to your organization, but it was music to my ears.

I'd like to ask you a very simple question, one you could probably answer at length. Could you tell us the importance of Bill C-10 for the future of francophone music?

[Jérôme Payette]

Thank you for your important question.

The passage of an amended bill for our culture is fundamental to the future of our music. It's important to note that the music business model is somewhat different from the audiovisual sector's business model. Almost all the same songs are found on online music services. We're talking about repertoires of between 60 million and 70 million songs, which is huge. Obviously, the more a song is played, the more it pays. If it isn't played, it doesn't pay. It's a war for the artists. They want their music to be played and they want to attract audiences.

The market share for French-language music dropped drastically during the transition from the traditional sector to the online sector. I had access to unpublished data from the Quebec observatory of culture and communications showing that, in November 2019, of the 740,000 most-played tracks in Canada, 2.8% were from Quebec. Quebec represents 22% of the Canadian population. According to the Quebec association for the recording, concert and video industries, or ADISQ, only 122 tracks from Quebec were on the list of the 10,000 most-played songs on online music services. In fact, 10,000 songs amount to 50% of the total number of tracks played.

We don't have the figures, so I had to make a rough estimate. I agree that the CRTC must give us better figures. I can say that the market share of Quebec music is certainly less than 14%. In comparison, the market share of Quebec music in the physical sector is 50%. We've lost three times our market share, which is huge.

The figures from the Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada, or SOCAN, confirm a three-, four- or fivefold drop in the market share for French-language music during the transition from the physical market to the online music service. This is a major issue.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

In your opinion, there's also a major discoverability issue.

How could we address this, in terms of showing that the content is good and worth discovering?

[Jérôme Payette]

Our content is certainly good and worth discovering.

There's a common misconception that most people actually select the music that they want to hear. Often, you select a specific track, and then the music continues on its own for hours.

We have figures. I can only provide the data for the United States, because we don't have any other data. According to these figures, 80% of the viewing time on YouTube is related to the recommendation engine. This comes right from the mouths of the YouTube representatives, who have said so publicly. According to the Pew Research Center, 64% of the videos recommended by YouTube's algorithm already have over one million views, and 5% of them have accumulated fewer than 50,000 views.

To be really recommended, you need one million views. Unfortunately, not many tracks by Quebec artists reach this level. It's important to understand that the recommendation tools of these platforms aren't set up for a market like ours. The platforms simply aren't motivated to take a greater interest in our market than necessary, because our market is too small.

Financial interests are also at stake when it comes to playing one type of content more than another. We have a number of reasons to believe that large companies, such as multinationals with larger repertoires and therefore greater bargaining power, negotiate preferential treatment to feature their own repertoires. This applies both to marketing in general and to algorithmic recommendation tools. These companies reportedly even pay advances.

Online music services have an interest in getting their repertoires played before ours.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

This supports the argument that we should have access to the algorithms of online broadcasting companies so that we can monitor to some extent the regulations implemented and make sure that they—

[Jérôme Payette]

I don't completely agree with the approach. I think that we should have outcome objectives. We don't necessarily need to understand how the algorithms work. It's very complex, it's artificial intelligence and it's changing.

However, we must know whether our content is recommended. If we can find out whether it's recommended, if we can measure that aspect, we'll be able to set a recommendation target. Personally, I support minimum recommendation requirements for Canadian or French-language content on online music services.

We must be able to obtain this. It's important to note that the market interests aren't there to support our music. We're seeing this in the shrinking market share. We're losing access to our audience, even though the objective of the Broadcasting Act is to make our music accessible to Canadians and Quebeckers. This is fundamental.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Payette.

I see that Mr. Freedman has raised his hand to respond or speak to this. I'll ask him to do so in the minute that I have left.

The floor is yours, Mr. Freedman.

[Alex Freedman]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux.

I'd say that the community stations in Quebec and outside Quebec constitute a major part of the distribution of original French-language music. I just want to add to what Mr. Payette said by pointing out that supporting our stations is a way of introducing new musicians.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Indeed. Thank you, Mr. Freedman.

Since I have some time left, I'll continue with you, Mr. Freedman.

I know that you're seeking recognition in Bill C-10, and in the Broadcasting Act in general. I'd say that, with this recognition, your fight will be much easier.

Why should a community radio commissioner at the CRTC be included in the act?

[Alex Freedman]

Again, for the same reason.

We need people at the CRTC who know what's going on with community radio and who have the expertise to speak about our interests. I understand that there isn't any public or private radio commissioner.

It would be wonderful to have a commissioner who represents the rest of Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Freedman.

Ms. McPherson, go ahead for six minutes, please.