Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 4th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Noormohamed.

I've been approached by members of the committee and asked if the committee would agree, because we still have about 12 minutes left, to go to two-minute rounds for everyone.

I will go to Mr. Waugh for two minutes, please.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

A few years ago, I remember the government signing off on Canada summer jobs when there was an attestation attached to it. Certain organizations across the country were forced to make a decision to either steadfastly say that they don't believe in this and they will not apply for Canada summer jobs, or bear down and decide as a group that they will sign the attestation, even though they don't believe in it.

Mr. Pardy, we've heard a little bit about attestations; it was brought up here. That's one example where government certainly, I think, exceeded its boundaries on the Canada summer jobs in signing off on the attestation forms, which affected so many people across this country and organizations that then did not partake in Canada summer jobs.

What are your thoughts?

[Bruce Pardy]

I totally agree.

The government today, the administrative state, works with carrots and with sticks. The sticks are prohibitions that will punish you if you misbehave, and the carrots are government benefits that they'll give you as long as you do what they say. That is one way they will control or try to control your speech: “You will sign on to this, or you will not get equal access to the benefits we are providing.”

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

They got no benefits. If you didn't sign on, you weren't eligible for the Canada summer jobs program. There was no grey area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

There was no grey area. It was either you sign or you don't get it.

[Bruce Pardy]

That's right. That's exactly so. That is an indirect form of compelled speech, in my books. That ought to be a no-no, as far as I am concerned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Kevin.

I'm going to go now to Mr. Noormohamed for two minutes, please.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to go back to Ms. Dufresne.

We have seen an assault on the rights of individuals in Alberta recently around some of the legislation that has been passed by Premier Smith. In B.C., thankfully, stuff like that is not going to see the light of day.

What concerns do you have if a potential Conservative government were to get into the business of passing legislation like that? What would it do to the community that you work with on a daily basis?

[Didi Dufresne]

I think it would put people who are already in distress in even further distress and drive people even further into the closet.

A few years ago, we were seeing a real increase in people being able to come out and appreciate the full sense of who they are in terms of their sexuality and their gender expression, and I think you would see a real rollback of that, absolutely.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

We're talking about freedom of expression. When we started this meeting, you said that you use the pronouns “she”, “he” and “they”.

A lot of people lose their mind about pronouns. I can't understand why anyone would give a damn what pronouns anybody uses. Why do you think people on the right are so triggered by the use of pronouns, when they talk about freedom of expression as one of their calling cards?

[Didi Dufresne]

I think that it gets at a false sense of a binary that people really hold on to, in that you have to be one thing or another, and it is the thing that they think you are. I think it really pushes at people's sense of reality, and I think that's very distressing to some people, unfortunately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

I will now go to Monsieur Champoux for two minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Once again, I'm going to turn to my friends from the Chaire de recherche France-Québec sur les enjeux contemporains de la liberté d'expression.

You work alongside French researchers. Would you say that Quebec and Canada are way behind France when it comes to education, digital literacy and media literacy? Obviously, all of those things help to prevent disinformation.

Are we behind? Are there things France is doing that we should learn from and implement here?

What are your thoughts on that?

Mr. Gaudreault‑DesBiens or Ms. Potvin can answer that.

[Maryse Potvin]

I'm going to let my colleague answer because I talked a lot earlier.

[Jean-François Gaudreault-DesBiens]

I think states need to consider not just the tools they have to educate the public, young people, in particular, on the challenges that digital platforms pose, but also the possible regulation of digital platforms. Europe is a lot farther ahead in that space.

The Libertarian speech—which is practically a sociological fact—common in the U.S. does exist in Europe, but less so. At the outset, it is widely recognized—although not unanimously, but probably by the majority of people—that freedom of expression is sometimes better protected when you protect the means used to express free speech in certain situations.

In other words, freedom of expression is not necessarily seen as a liberty that is strictly negative, even though it primarily is. Obviously, since that is taken for granted, a government has to be very careful when it acts to restrict or regulate freedom of expression.

That said, I think Europe is much farther along in that area. That's about all I can say in a few seconds.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Australia has taken the approach of banning social media for those under the age of 16, so they can't access that kind of content. Is that the right approach? Is it good or bad?

I know I don't have any time left, but I would still like to get an answer to that.

[Jean-François Gaudreault-DesBiens]

Personally, I tend to see it as a good thing.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm being told that I have some time left.

If you can, please elaborate on that, Mr. Gaudreault‑DesBiens.

[Jean-François Gaudreault-DesBiens]

I'm not an expert on Australia's approach, but I think it's based on scientific evidence showing that technology platforms and social media networks can result in psychological and even neurological harm to young people under the age of 16.

In that sense, it is almost a public health issue to some extent. The equation changes a bit when you weigh and balance freedom of expression, on one hand, and free access to platforms, on the other, as compared with public health considerations.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I gather from your comments that it's something we could consider. You aren't opposed to exploring the idea.

I would like to thank the witnesses, especially Mr. Gaudreault‑DesBiens, Ms. Lefebvre and Ms. Potvin, for being with us today. Their input has been very helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We'll go to Ms. Ashton for two minutes, please.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

My final question is for Ms. Majid.

We know that recently Francesca Albanese, the United Nations special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories, came to Canada. In an unprecedented move for a UN rapporteur, the Liberal Minister of Foreign Affairs refused to meet with her. Senior representatives of Global Affairs Canada refused to meet with her. The foreign affairs committee of Parliament retracted an invitation for her to present. It's a clear reflection of the chilling effect, not just vis-à-vis somebody who is outspoken on what is happening in the occupied Palestinian territories and the presumed genocide, but also for an officer of the UN, a UN special rapporteur.

How troubling is it, and frankly unacceptable, that Canada showed this kind of response to a UN special rapporteur, somebody who is speaking out on what is happening to the Palestinians and Palestine?

[Dania Majid]

Yes, it was exceptionally troubling, especially because she was here, coming to Canada from New York, after presenting her latest report on the genocide in Gaza. Canada, as a signatory to a range of international conventions, including the fourth Geneva Convention, has a responsibility to prevent and stop a genocide. They refused to hear from her or even explore with her what Canada can do in terms of our policies to ensure that they are not complicit in this genocide.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.