Canadian Heritage Committee on March 30th, 2023

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

But where's the clause to renegotiate?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We're running out of time.

[Sean Heffernan]

Unless they come under default through the resolution process, there isn't one.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Shields.

I now go to the Liberals.

Ms. Hepfner, you have five minutes, please.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'll start with Nick Bontis.

For full disclosure, Nick, we go back many years, of course, in Hamilton. In my years at CHCH, you were a main business commentator related to your role at McMaster University. I don't know if you still play the same role, but Bontis on Business was a regular segment on CHCH.

We've spoken over the years also about your involvement in soccer. I have to say that it was with great disappointment that I heard at this committee some of the comments that Christine Sinclair heard from you, in part because you're also involved at the local level, in the smaller clubs and with the kids who are coming up.

The young girls who are playing soccer on Hamilton Mountain and getting together at Mohawk Sports Park look up to people like Christine Sinclair. This is someone who is at the top of her game in the world. She is a hero to so many Canadians.

What message do you think it sends to those young kids playing soccer when they see someone who is at the top of her game still feeling disrespected by the board at Canada Soccer?

[Dr. Nick Bontis]

In full disclosure, it's great to see and interact with you again, and I appreciate the question.

As I mentioned in my opening statement, I regret that statement. Christine Sinclair was one of the first athletes I met when I entered Canada Soccer in 2012. In fact, I was the head of delegation in their preparation tour for the Olympics.

I want to share this memory with you, because it still resonates with me today. I believe that the greatest moment in football history in our country was when Christine Sinclair scored a hat trick in the semifinals at the Olympics that summer. It was a beacon of light for me. Without getting into the details of the game, I think we remember a six-second goalkeeping rule by the Norwegian referee, but we'll put that aside.

In all the interactions I had with Christine from that moment on, I tried to do my best to speak to her whenever I had a free moment, just to tell her how much she meant to me. I had the great opportunity, as vice-president and as president, to present Christine with many awards—the greatest goal scorer in international soccer history being one of them—including for the achievements at the Olympics.

To answer your question, yes, it's regrettable. I am not only a Hamiltonian. I am a coach. I was a local youth coach in Hamilton. I tried to instill the values that are important as a coach. I can tell you that I take that role very seriously. I coached very young kids—seven, eight, nine and 10 years old—in the time I was a coach.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it.

It is too bad, considering that you have that respect for Christine Sinclair, that she did not feel respected by you.

I would like to move on, in the couple of minutes I have left, to the situation of Bob Birarda in Canada Soccer. This is something we've heard about in other sports. Predators face accusations. They leave their organization without being fully investigated, move to another part of the country and continue to teach. This is someone who first faced allegations in the mid-2000s, but wasn't convicted until just recently. He was allowed to continue coaching soccer.

What has Canada Soccer done to prevent this type of thing from happening again?

[Dr. Nick Bontis]

It's a very serious and important question. I would like to have that question answered in a more wholesome and fulsome way by Victor Montagliani, considering that he was present during the Birarda case. I was not.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

That's fine with me.

Go ahead.

[Vittorio Montagliani]

Yes, that's fine.

In terms of the specifics of the Birarda case back in 2008, the executive committee, which is a committee of eight people from the board, considered the allegation against Mr. Birarda as it related to inappropriate texting. The matter was investigated by an independent ombudswoman and legal counsel.

There were two conference calls that dealt with this matter. One was to suspend Mr. Birarda. The second was to hire an investigator.

The second conference call, weeks later, dealt with the recommendation by the investigator, through our president, to confirm that there would be no police undertaking in this matter, unfortunately. To your point, there was also the texting that was confirmed to be inappropriate for a coach-player relationship. Also, the identity of the players or player involved, as well as the details of the texting, were not revealed to the committee because of privacy and confidentiality issues.

With respect to the specifics of coaching, up until recently and going back to 2008, the only risk management tool that a club had was a police background check. If you passed the police background check, you could coach in Canada. Unfortunately, that is not a system that is tenable, to your point.

I think that recently there have been changes. I think Canada Soccer can speak to that. Some of those changes were started, in effect, in 2012 under the guidelines of Sport Canada. These are some of the things that I think the whole industry of player welfare and safe sport need to change, so that you can't just rely on a police background check. If the police do not interact with them or do what needs to be done, obviously this person—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Montagliani. You can expand on that in a future question.

I now go to the Bloc Québécois, and Sébastien Lemire.

You have two and a half minutes, please, Sébastien.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Heffernan, you have been in office for quite a while.

At PricewaterhouseCoopers Canada, were the professionals who do your financial statements aware of the agreement with Canada Soccer Business?

How long have the people at PricewaterhouseCoopers Canada been your auditors?

In what financial year do we find the documentation about the closing or disposal of the legacy fund?

[Sean Heffernan]

PwC, PricewaterhouseCoopers, have been our auditors since 2007, from when we tendered, shortly after I joined the organization. Yes, they are fully aware of the CSB agreement and reviewed it in great detail.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

We hear talk about a legacy fund, and obviously, about the level of familiarity with Sports Agents Canada. A fund on the order of $28 million is said to have been available.

Can you give us details or clarify the withdrawal that was made from this legacy fund?

[Sean Heffernan]

I would need a greater understanding of what you're referring to, because I don't understand or know of any fund of $28 million for a legacy. If I had further details, I might be able to refocus what it is that you're asking for.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Okay. We'll come back to it.

Mr. Montagliani, after everything we have read in the McLaren report, do you think you still have the legitimacy needed for sitting on FIFA and on CONCACAF, or for managing the FIFA world championships to be held in 2026?

[Vittorio Montagliani]

Madam Chair, I think the McLaren report was quite clear in terms of the individual roles of the people involved. I was part of a committee of eight people who had two conference calls to make the decisions that were made. It was very clear in what was done, in terms of the report of the independent ombudswoman. As I volunteered to discuss with them, the McLaren report did identify institutional gaps with respect to policies, which I think have now been addressed, starting in 2012. They were also addressed recently by Canada Soccer with the hiring of Allison Forsyth, to ensure that those policy gaps are no longer there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Montagliani. We have run out of time.

I'm now going to go to Peter Julian, for the New Democrats.

Peter, you have two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To Mr. Bontis, I asked this question last week: While you were president of Canada Soccer, how many allegations of sexual abuse came to your attention and were investigated?

[Dr. Nick Bontis]

In my role as director of Canada Soccer, starting in 2012, I was not aware of the Birarda case until there were further allegations, some time around 2019-20. I don't know exactly when there were some further allegations. Since that period of time and since I was president, I was not made aware of any other safe sport sexual allegation.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

No allegations of sexual abuse anywhere came to your attention as president of Canada Soccer. I find that surprising, but I'll move on to Mr. Montagliani.

You mentioned the Birarda case as one of inappropriate texting, but he has been sent to prison for sexual assault. This is a profound crime that took place within the organization, with players who were to be protected by the organization.

How could that failure have happened? Were you not aware, or when did you become aware, of the fact that he was committing this horrific and egregious crime of sexual assault?

[Vittorio Montagliani]

Going back to 2008, and as the McLaren report outlined, we dealt with the sole allegation of his inappropriate texting at a national team camp in Vancouver. That was the process of that investigation.

With respect to what he was subsequently charged with, which came to light in 2019-20.... Those predated his time at the Canadian Soccer Association. He committed those offences while working at the grassroots or at private academies in British Columbia. In 2008, nobody was aware. I was certainly not aware of anything Mr. Birarda had done previously; nor—to my knowledge—was our committee aware of it. By the looks of it, neither were the investigators.

This didn't, unfortunately, come forward until the victims came forward in 2019-20, which led to the police being engaged and, ultimately, Mr. Birarda's being charged.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. Your time is up, now, Peter.

I'll go to the Conservatives and Mr. Shields for five minutes.

Go ahead, Martin.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's Rachael Thomas, here, taking this question round.