Evidence of meeting #7 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joint Chair  Hon. Gwen Boniface (Senator, Ontario, ISG)
Brenda Lucki  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
David Vigneault  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Commissioner Michael Duheme  Deputy Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Claude Carignan  Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
Peter Harder  Senator, Ontario, PSG
Vernon White  Senator, Ontario, C
Brian Brennan  Deputy Commissioner, Contract and Indigenous Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Marie-Hélène Chayer  Executive Director, Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

6:35 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface (Senator, Ontario, ISG)

Welcome to meeting number seven of the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of Emergency, created pursuant to the order of the House on March 2, 2022, and of the Senate on March 3, 2022.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I'd like to remind all those present in the room to please follow the recommendations from the public health authorities, as well as the directives of the Board of Internal Economy, to maintain health and safety.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me, as we may need to suspend for a few minutes to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Witnesses should also be aware that translation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of their screen.

Is it agreed to repeat the five-minute rounds as we did last week? I believe we have an agreement on that.

6:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

6:35 p.m.

Hon. Gwen Boniface (Senator, Ontario, ISG)

The Joint Chair

Today we have representatives from the RCMP and CSIS.

We are happy to welcome Commissioner Brenda Lucki of the RCMP. She is joined by Michael Duheme, deputy commissioner of federal policing, and Brian Brennan, deputy commissioner of contract and indigenous policing.

We are also happy to welcome David Vigneault, director of CSIS. He is joined by Cherie Henderson, assistant director of requirements, and Marie-Hélène Chayer, executive director of the Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre.

We will start with Commissioner Lucki for opening remarks.

The floor is yours.

6:35 p.m.

Commissioner Brenda Lucki Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Chair.

Good evening, everyone.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to be here today.

As the chair mentioned, I'm here with my colleagues, Deputy Commissioner Brian Brennan and Deputy Commissioner Mike Duheme.

Really the primary goal of law enforcement is to always maintain public order and keep citizens safe. As we all witnessed, police services across the country responded to unprecedented and highly disruptive demonstrations, illegal blockades and occupations.

In RCMP jurisdiction, we successfully used a measured approach and existing legislation to resolve border blockades at Emerson in Manitoba, Coutts in Alberta, and the Pacific Highway crossing into British Columbia. The RCMP, Ontario Provincial Police and the Ottawa Police Service established both a national capital region coordination centre and an integrated command centre to ensure continued collaboration, the exchange of information, and coordination of investigation and enforcement activities within our nation's capital.

On February 14, the Government of Canada provided law enforcement with additional tools. The measures enacted under the Emergencies Act provided all police officers across the country—not just the RCMP—with the ability to deal with blockades and unlawful public assemblies. The emergency measure regulations supplemented existing authorities and provided new instruments for law enforcement to address these illegal blockades.

Let's look at some concrete examples.

First, police were able to maintain a secure perimeter throughout the national capital region, and refuse entry to individuals travelling to the illegal protest with the intent of participating. Second, supporting an illegal assembly was also prohibited, and police had the enforcement authority to arrest individuals who continued to supply fuel, food and other materials to an area of an unlawful assembly. Third, there were new powers to compel individuals to provide essential goods and/or services for the removal, towing and storage of vehicles and equipment. I delegated these powers to the OPP, which used them to secure needed equipment to clear the streets of Ottawa.

The goal was to bring a safe and swift end to the illegal blockade. I believe that we all effectively achieved this objective, and I want to thank all of the police officers, from all law enforcement agencies, who joined this operation.

I would now like to talk about the Emergency Economic Measures Order.

It's well known that the “freedom convoy” was well funded, with financial support provided to organizers through a variety of means, including crowdfunding platforms, using both cryptocurrency and money.

Once implemented, these orders allowed the RCMP and its partners to work even more closely with Canadian financial institutions in real time. The RCMP developed a streamlined process where we acted as a central point of contact to disclose information to financial institutions on behalf of provincial, municipal and federal law enforcement.

Once established, the RCMP provided the relevant information to financial institutions, which then had the onus to determine which financial products could and should be frozen. This only included information on owners and operators of vehicles who were active participants in the blockades in Ottawa or convoy organizers.

To be clear, because I know this has been raised in a number of different fora, at no time did the RCMP disclose any information on individuals who solely donated to the convoys or purchased related merchandise.

In addition, the RCMP ensured financial institutions were updated regularly when owners and operators of the vehicles left the protest area. This allowed the financial institutions to better assess and inform their own decisions about when to freeze or unfreeze accounts.

Once the situation was resolved, the government lifted the state of emergency declared under the Emergencies Act.

As of February 23, 2022, RCMP action culminated in the freezing of 257 financial products, which included bank accounts, corporate accounts and credit cards. The disclosure of 57 entities to financial institutions included individuals, owners and drivers of vehicles involved in the blockade and the identification of 170 Bitcoin wallet addresses, which were shared with the virtual asset service providers.

In closing, I really believe that the act provided us with the tools to resolve the crisis swiftly and peacefully, and I would thank you for the time and the opportunity to speak more about this topic.

Thank you.

6:40 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface

Thank you, Commissioner.

I will ask you to raise your mike between your mouth and nose for the purpose of answering questions. That will assist the interpreters somewhat as we move forward.

We'll now move to the director of CSIS, Mr. Vigneault.

Please go ahead.

May 10th, 2022 / 6:40 p.m.

David Vigneault Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Members of the committee, good evening.

My name is David Vigneault, and I am the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. I am accompanied this evening by Cherie Henderson, assistant director for requirements at CSIS, and Marie-Hélène Chayer, the executive director of the Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre.

I want to thank you for the invitation to appear before you today concerning the invocation of the Emergencies Act. I am thankful for this opportunity to discuss this very important topic with you.

What I can freely say for certain is that CSIS is at all times dedicated to working closely with communities and our partners across the country to keep Canada and all Canadians safe.

As this committee is well aware, CSIS has the mandate to investigate threats to the security of Canada, advise the government on these threats and, when appropriate, take measures or steps to reduce them.

Threats to the security of Canada are defined in section 2 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act. They include espionage, sabotage, foreign influenced activities that are clandestine or deceptive and that include threats, terrorism and violent extremism, as well as subversion.

I must stress that CSIS is specifically prohibited from investigating lawful advocacy, protest or dissent, except when it is carried out in conjunction with activities that constitute a threat to the security of Canada.

In the case of the “freedom convoy”, CSIS was concerned by the threat of ideologically motivated violent extremism, or IMVE, and specifically the potential for serious acts of violence. As I recently said publicly, IMVE currently represents a significant national security threat. The combination of major disruptive events like the pandemic, the ever-increasing influence of social media, and the spread of conspiracy theories has created an environment ripe for exploitation by influencers and extremists. This environment has the potential to inspire individuals to commit acts of violence.

The threat from IMVE is constantly evolving, fuelled by extreme views around race, gender, power and authority. IMVE is a threat that thrives on division and festers in the online space, but the hateful online rhetoric associated with these views is spilling over into the real world with the tragic consequences, including for equity-deserving communities across Canada.

In the lead-up to the “freedom convoy”, CSIS closely monitored known IMVE threat actors to assess any threats of serious acts of violence. This operational posture was informed by context. For one, CSIS has observed a rise in anti-authority, violent rhetoric particularly related to public health measures. CSIS was also aware of the opportunities that large gatherings and protests could offer IMVE actors to carry out acts of violence and recruit like-minded individuals. Finally, CSIS was concerned about the threat posed by lone actors.

Throughout the events of January and February, CSIS remained engaged with the RCMP and other law enforcement partners to ensure the timely sharing of information. As you know, the definition of public order emergency in the Emergencies Act refers to “threats to the security of Canada” as defined in the CSIS Act.

In determining if a situation rises to the level of a public order emergency, the Governor in Council can consider multiple sources of information, not just CSIS intelligence. Indeed, CSIS is but one among the various federal departments and agencies whose collective advice ultimately informed the decision by the Governor in Council to invoke the Emergencies Act.

Before I conclude, I would like to point out that some factors will limit what I will be able to speak publicly about this evening. As I'm sure you'll appreciate, there are some things that I'm prevented from saying in public under the Security of Information Act. Furthermore, the intelligence and advice we provide to the government is classified in order to protect our sources and methods.

I take the responsibility of protecting our employees, our sources and our tradecraft very seriously.

In closing, I'd like to assure the committee that, although CSIS often works in the shadows, it is determined to respect its commitment to ensure the safety of Canadians. That commitment depends on interaction with the communities to protect, and partnership with other government agencies, law enforcement services, civil society, academia and the private sector.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

6:45 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to a round of questions, beginning with Mr. Motz.

Mr. Motz.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, RCMP members and CSIS members, for being here.

Commissioner Lucki, on what date and and at what time were you first informed that the government would be invoking the Emergencies Act?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Thank you for that question.

There were discussions prior to February 14. I would say probably actually February 14 was when were advised that they were going to invoke it.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

That was the first time you had any conversation about the Emergencies Act, on February 14?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

No, that was—

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

My question is, when were you first informed that the government would be invoking the act?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said, “when they did invoke the act”.

We spoke about it. I don't have the exact date in front of me, but I would say within the week before, when I was given the situational reports, there were discussions and various talks about the Emergencies Act—

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

It was within the week, then, so who informed you?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I can't say for sure. It may have been within a deputy minister committee.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Okay.

In your opening remarks, you indicated that the situations at various border crossings, including Emerson and Coutts, were resolved using existing legislation.

My question then is do you really believe that the situation involving the “freedom convoy” was a national emergency that required the government's invocation of the Emergencies Act? Do you believe the situation couldn't be resolved with any other existing law in the country and that invoking the act was necessary, legal and met the threshold, yes or no?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

You referred to how we resolved these situations. Within RCMP jurisdiction, we obviously had the benefit of hindsight after what happened in Ottawa, and there were times when we actually would have used it if it had been invoked earlier.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

You resolved the other matters with existing legislation and without using the Emergencies Act, so my question, again, is do you believe this was a national emergency, that it met the threshold, that the Emergencies Act was necessary and legal and that this could not be dealt with under any existing law, yes or no?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

It's not for me to answer whether we met the threshold. That's for the government to answer.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Well, your opinion matters. Commissioner, your opinion does matter.

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I can tell you how we used it.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

I know how you used it.

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I could tell you how we used it, but I—

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

We know how you used it.

Thank you.

Given the fact that the “freedom” convoy protest paled in comparison with the crowdfunded, preplanned, violent attack at the Coastal GasLink site, did the RCMP make use of the Emergencies Act provisions in response to that incident, yes or no?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

No.