Declaration of Emergency Committee on May 10th, 2022

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That's a great question. It's all about reducing the footprint so that we can enforce safely.

We could maintain and reinforce the perimeter. It provided us and other policing partners an ability to restrict travel; prevent children from being brought into the situation; secure necessary equipment, such as tow trucks; and ensure that we could cut off financial support and other assistance, such as gas, for this unlawful blockade.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Madam Chair, through you, I will pass it on to Ms. May.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Thank you.

Ms. May, you have two minutes.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Naqvi, and thank you, Madam Chair.

My question will be for CSIS director Monsieur Vigneault.

The key to being able to invoke the Emergencies Act is really that the definition of threats to the security of Canada under the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act be met, and that act being the act that governs CSIS. I think you're the most familiar with it of anyone before us today.

I wonder if you would know—and if you don't know, is it findable to know...not the details, because those might still be considered secret—how many times, in the use of the act, has a situation or event been seen by CSIS to meet the definition of a threat to the security of Canada?

[David Vigneault]

Thank you very much for the question.

I think there are a couple of elements in this that you are noting, Ms. May.

It is absolutely accurate that the Emergencies Act is using the—

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

You have one minute.

[David Vigneault]

—CSIS definition, but it's also very clear that the Governor in Council, when it decides to invoke the Emergencies Act, is using all sorts of information. It does not rely solely on CSIS. It may or may not even be appropriate to use information from CSIS, depending on the situation.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

You may have misunderstood my question. I know I don't have much time left.

In other instances, historically, how many times would CSIS have found a threat to the security of Canada?

[David Vigneault]

Actually, every day at CSIS, as per our act, we investigate issues related to a threat to the safety of Canada. Every day, unfortunately, CSIS employees and professionals are uncovering and investigating threats to the security of Canada.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

I won't go on, Madam Chair, because I know I'm probably out of time, but if it's every day, then it's been thousands of times that the threat to security—

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Your time is up. I'm sorry.

Thank you, Ms. May.

We'll go now to Monsieur Fortin.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll come back to you, Ms. Lucki. I'd just like to be sure that I fully understand your comments.

How long have you been a member of the RCMP, Ms. Lucki?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I'm going to age myself. It's 36 years.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

How long have you been a member of the RCMP, Ms. Lucki?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I've been a member since 1986.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Okay.

Have you ever had to deal with protests in Canada?

Was this the first time that you had seen such street protests?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I am a trained public order commander, but this is the first time I've ever seen a protest such as this.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

You said earlier that you had ended protests elsewhere in Canada without needing to have a state of emergency declared.

That is what you said, right?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes.

We obviously have the benefit of hindsight of what happened in Ottawa, so we could change our tactics to ensure that big trucks, for example, would not stop in the area, or park, or disable....

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Why didn't you do the same thing in Ottawa?

Why didn't you prevent trucks from blocking Wellington Street?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

The Ottawa Police Service is probably in a better position to answer that, but what I would say is that—

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

The chief of police at the time had told us that he did not see how he could have done it. You'll agree that that's a bit of a concern, Ms. Lucki. I don't blame you. I'm satisfied that you are a competent woman in your duties, but there's a lack of information.

There's something, somewhere, that doesn't make sense. What I understand from what you said, you and Mr. Vigneault, is that the situation was resolved everywhere else without the declaration of a state of emergency. In Ottawa, there was a hot tub and a barbecue in the street, and a lot of people protesting. You were unable to resolve that. You are telling us that the reason you were unable to do it before the declaration of emergency was that there were no tow trucks available.

Are you telling me that Canada's security was in jeopardy because you couldn't find tow trucks?

Is that your explanation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No, not all. Every protest is completely different. This was an illegal protest—

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

I'm talking about the protest on Wellington Street, Ms. Lucki.

I'm sorry to interrupt you. I know it's rude, but I have very limited time.

You said the other situations were resolved, so I'm not talking about them.

Protesters blocked Wellington Street with trucks, they set up hot tubs, barbecues and a slide for children. There was a party on Wellington Street, and you are saying that not the RCMP, not the Ontario Provincial Police, not the Ottawa Police Service could take action because there were no tow trucks. That's what you said earlier.

That worries me some, and I hope that there's never a war in Ottawa because it would be pretty bad.

The problem is that there were no tow trucks. Is that really the explanation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No, that's not at all what I was trying to say. I think I've been misinterpreted.