Evidence of meeting #7 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:15 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I don't have time for that, unfortunately. I need you to answer the question.
Did you consider the preparations around Coutts to be within the threshold of a threat of terrorism?
9:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I cannot get into specifics of the classified information that was shared with us.
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Clearly, the government's side leaked it. It was reported quite widely, in fact, in The Guardian. It was leaked. It said, “We knew these people were coming”. That's from a federal government source.
9:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I don't believe that the reports you're referring to referred specifically to the events of Coutts. It was earlier than that. Our assessment was about the opportunities that such a protest would afford to IMVE elements.
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Sure, but you were tracking them as they were on their way. Is that correct? You knew.
The thing about this protest or this movement, in particular, is that they were reporting on themselves through Zello, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and others. This was probably one of the largest evidentiary sources of open-source self-incrimination that I've ever seen.
When I look at this.... Your report said that supporters of the convoy have advocated civil war, called for violence against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and said that the protests should be used as Canada's January 6th.
Is that correct? Is that accurate within the context of the report?
9:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Yes, that's what the report mentioned.
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Thank you.
I'm going to go back now to Mr. Vigneault. The government, pursuant to its legislation, has an explanatory note referring to section 58 of the Emergencies Act. It uses language that is very similar to our legal definition of terrorism.
My question, through you, Madam Chair, is in your intelligence gathering, would you consider these processes within the threshold of terrorism or threats of terrorism?
9:20 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
As I mentioned earlier, the Emergencies Act refers to the CSIS Act, but the information from CSIS is just one part of the information. We do not have the power to lay charges, so we gave that information to law enforcement—
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I'm not asking that question, sir.
Respectfully, Mr. Vigneault, you are a very intelligent man. I'm asking you to answer the question that I've asked, sir.
9:20 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Can you please repeat it?
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Did it meet the threshold of terrorism? The definition in the explanatory notes uses the definition of terrorism, but doesn't explicitly call it that. Given that ITAC was on this, did you consider it to be within the threshold of a threat of terrorism?
9:20 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I'm not sure, Mr. Green, that we can make a comparison like that. For any element of terrorism, facts that are in front of the police need to be looked at, and then charges laid.
The definition of terrorism to allow CSIS to investigate is very clear in the CSIS Act, and it is what we've been using—
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I will put the question then to Commissioner Lucki.
Commissioner Lucki, you are not bound by the CSIS Act. Given that you would probably be briefed on the explanatory note of the government invoking this act, would you believe it to be within the threshold of a threat of domestic terrorism?
9:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
At Coutts we did not lay terrorism charges—
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
That's not what I asked. Was it in the threat, and I'll be specific: “the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property, including critical infrastructure, for the purpose of achieving a political or ideological objective within Canada”. That is paragraph (i) in the explanatory notes of the proclamation. Is that within the threshold of a threat of terrorism?
9:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
We can't speak specifically to the threshold because it's not for me to decide if it meets a threshold.
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
You don't provide any information to ITAC on whether or not you believe there is a threat of terrorism? Is that not part of your role on national security?
9:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
No. We provide the information, and analysts take that information and put that all together. They combine all of that information, and they come up with an analysis of that information.
9:20 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
My apologies, Commissioner.
Mr. Green, your time is up, and I've been generous.
9:20 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Then I will take the chair and allow you to continue. Thank you so very much, Senator.
9:20 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
My question goes back to Deputy Commissioner Duheme. I continue the same line of questioning.
On the weekend—it has escaped me what day it was that you actually operationalized your plan here on Wellington Street and all the other streets that were impacted by it—can you tell me how many officers would have been available to you for deployment?
9:20 p.m.
D/Commr Michael Duheme
Madam Chair, I wouldn't have the exact number of officers on the streets in a shift's rotation. I can tell you that February 17 is when activities started ramping up with our PLT's increased presence in the downtown core, informing people that this was an illegal protest and that they must leave the area.
I can tell you that the RCMP provided over 700 members to assist in this movement, but I don't have an overall number of people, shift by shift.
9:20 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Can you tell me how many police agencies were involved in that operation?
9:20 p.m.
D/Commr Michael Duheme
An exact number, no. There were several from across the country.
9:20 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Would you be able to provide that information to us, just to give us a sense of the scale of the operation itself?