Declaration of Emergency Committee on May 31st, 2022

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

The motion is being circulated, but I think it is short enough that we can discuss it.

Mr. Green, Mr. White and Mr. Brock want to speak.

Mr. Green, we're listening.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Yes, we've had all the chat around the table about presuppositions, and yet here we are presupposing we're going to have this thing wrapped up in the winter. I think that's foolhardy and it does not reflect where we are at all, in terms of our witness lists and our work plan. It's premature in so many ways. I'm referencing, from my community and from the public, the lack of communications on the public inquiry side. I'll say on the record that people are frustrated that they're not hearing anything out of that committee, and I would just put to this one that if that process is going to be a process that goes away in private and kind of takes its time to deliberate in ways that are not open and transparent, it is incumbent on us as a joint parliamentary committee, with the seriousness of what's before us here, to provide answers to Canadians in an open, transparent and public way.

This is not personal—I have a great deal of affection for Mr. Naqvi—but I just think that this is very premature and I certainly will not be presupposing that this will be wrapped up, given that we don't even know if we're going to get the documents. We don't know what witnesses are going to come from the documents. We have no idea what's going to happen over these next couple of months, and so with all due respect to Mr. Naqvi, there's no chance that I would support this motion.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you.

Mr. White, you have the floor. It will be Mr. Brock's turn next.

[Vernon White]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The expectation is to look at documents by July 1, which means that we will not have a meeting from that point in time until an interim report is completed, and I don't agree with that. I would suggest that we adjourn debate on this and push it forward until a future date, because I don't think we will be prepared for an interim report.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Mr. White is making a motion to adjourn debate on Mr. Naqvi's motion.

Because it is a motion that is not debatable, I'm going to call the question on the motion to adjourn debate on Mr. Naqvi's motion.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Mr. Motz, you have the floor.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I just wanted to add a comment along with Mr. Green's about the theme of having a report done by this time. I think, quite honestly—and no offence, I have great respect for Mr. Naqvi and my friends across the way—this is just an illustration to Canadians that there is a push to get this through this committee without having the fulsome, transparent and accountable responsibility that this committee has. Actually, I'm glad that this meeting is in public, because to me it demonstrates.... I'm actually shocked that the members of the government think that this is a responsible, transparent and accountable timeline to get through this. Obviously, whoever made that decision above the members in this committee to push that has no idea of the witness list and hasn't seen the witness list, because it is extensive and we intend to go through it.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Harder, you have the floor. It will be Ms. Bendayan's turn next.

[Peter Harder]

This seems to be the time for us to all give our personal perspectives. Let me say that I think it's important for the committee to get down to its work. I would also point out that the inquiry must report within a year of the revocation of the Emergencies Act, and it would be ridiculous for this committee not to report before the inquirer. That would be my view. I would encourage us to have a work plan that allows this committee to complete its work before February of next year.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

I think there are sometimes conversations that are not part of the official public debate.

With that said, if I understand correctly, Senator Harder is making a motion to say that our work should be completed before...

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, my hand is up.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

It seems that was just a comment.

Thank you.

Ms. Bendayan, you have the floor.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

To respond to the comment by Mr. Motz, I have proposed on numerous occasions that this committee meet multiple times a week if necessary in order to get through our work. There is every intention to get through the witness list. I certainly intend to ensure that is done. There was no thought given to circumventing the full hearing that needs to happen at this committee.

Like Senator Harder, I believe we have an obligation to Canadians to report back on the work of this committee, to do so regularly, and to provide a final report before the public inquiry provides its final report. That is, I think, consistent with the intent of the legislation, which was, as you recall, originally to oversee the implementation of any invocation of the Emergencies Act, and it was meant to happen before the public inquiry files its findings.

I think I speak for many of us, and certainly my colleagues, when I say that we intend to get through the work of this committee, but the work of this committee must include reporting back in a timely fashion to Canadians.

Once again, if necessary, this committee and each of its members should be prepared to sit longer and more often in order to get that done.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Ms. Bendayan.

I have Mr. Virani and Mr. Naqvi on my list.

Your hand is still up, Mr. Naqvi. Do you want to speak?

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yes, I do.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Right.

I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Virani, Mr. Naqvi and Mr. Green, in that order.

Mr. Virani, you have the floor.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I would echo the sentiments that were expressed by Senator Harder with respect to the need to get down to doing some more concrete work and doing it expeditiously. I reiterate that it would be extremely prudent to Canadians, to the people we represent, to wrap up that work prior to the inquiry's concluding its work. I think that is what Canadians expect of us. I would reiterate exactly what Ms. Bendayan just expressed in terms of repeated efforts on her part and the part of others on our side of the House to make sure we are doing just that.

I would reiterate, going back to the reason for the cancellation of the previous meeting and a comment by Mr. Brock that something that happened at the justice committee was as a result of efforts by Liberals to prevent an adjournment of a meeting. That meeting was dealing with a bill called Bill C-5, which is a bill that many are familiar with in this committee room, and many Canadians should be familiar with. We would not adjourn proceedings at that committee in order to prolong committee deliberations under a bill that needed to be addressed, in what it represents in terms of curing mandatory minimum penalties that disproportionately affect black and indigenous men, predominantly, in this country.

That is why that committee meeting dragged on, preventing this committee meeting from happening last week and preventing this work from occurring.

Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you.

I'm going to let you finish what you were saying, Mr. Virani, but I have to say, as joint chair of the committee, that in my opinion, we should not be debating here what happened in another committee last week. I think the two positions have been stated, by Mr. Brock on the one side and Mr. Virani on the other. I suggest that we not say any more about this, that is, what did or didn't happen at the Standing Committee on Justice last week.

With that said, I give Mr. Naqvi the floor.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to state on the record that I've been fairly patient throughout the proceedings of this committee over the months. I'm growing frustrated, and I think that was reflected in the motion I presented.

It feels to me that this committee is more interested in having procedural conversations, ad nauseam at times, as opposed to getting to the work of this committee. I think today is an example. We've had another three-hour meeting doing exactly that.

I find that when we actually had witnesses, when we had the opportunity to hear from them, when we had the opportunity to ask them questions, we learned more and we shed more light on the invocation and the revocation of the Emergencies Act. That is exactly what Canadians want from us, rather than when we do what we have been doing today.

I find it a bit odd when people are suggesting that somehow by putting forward a motion like that, I or others are trying to bring an end to this committee. It is absolutely to the contrary. I'm attempting to focus us so that we can get the work done.

I agree with Senator Harder. It would be quite absurd if the work of this committee went beyond that of the public inquiry, which has a very set timeline. I think it's incumbent upon us to roll up our sleeves, bring witnesses and ask them the questions, so we can have a better understanding and we can report back to Canadians.

My last point, Chair, would be that sometimes it feels that some members of this committee are looking for almost a make-work project, that they would like this to go on and on until maybe the next election. If that's what they're interested in, I don't think Canadians are interested in that. Canadians want us to ask important questions of relevant witnesses and report back. That's why I'm part of this committee, and that's what I intend to do. Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Mr. Naqvi.

Mr. Green, you have the floor.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you.

I appreciate Mr. Virani's points. Respectfully, through you, Mr. Chair, in referencing the notion of other committees' dysfunction, filibuster or what have you, we recognize the reality of the constraints of committee scheduling.

I don't want to mislead the public, or have the public be misled, about our not doing the work simply because we don't want to work more frequently. The reality is there are administrative constraints here. Coming out of this meeting, people are able to have their own comments, but they can't have their own facts. The fact remains that we don't have the carte blanche ability to sequester all the translators and clerks, and bring in Zoom, to do this multiple times a week. That's just not the case. The process is what it is because we have administrative constraints, not because anybody's looking to frustrate the process or prolong this for quite some time.

To the other point about what Canadians want, I keep hearing that. I want to reference, again, the imbalance we have when it comes to access to information—the most basic information, Mr. Chair.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Excuse me, Mr. Green. I have to interrupt you for a moment.

Several of us are speaking at once and having side conversations. It makes the job difficult for the interpreters and the people who are speaking.

I don't like to do it, but I urge you to be bit more discreet. It's fine to discuss things freely outside the official forum, and sometimes it enables us to reach compromises, but I think we're losing control.

Yes, it's late. It's almost 8:30, and there is still an hour of meeting left. I urge you to be a bit more disciplined about the side discussions, to facilitate everyone's work, particularly for the interpreters.

Thank you, and I turn the floor back over to Mr. Green.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I will exercise my discipline and cede my time for the benefit of the committee.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Mr. Brock, you have the floor.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I withdraw my intervention.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.