Environment Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think I'll leave the announcement on those industrial regulations to when we make it. It will be coming forward in short order.

I do think that certainly domestic trading or trading within the same airshed so we can reduce greenhouse gas emissions and ensure cleaner air would be more profitable to Canadians. I do have a concern that if we are sending billions of dollars of taxpayers' money to Russia and other countries, Canada will be left behind in the green economy. That concerns me.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Finally, Mr. Minister, then, just to confirm, your government prefers intensity caps. Correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. McGuinty, you're at 10 and a half minutes.

We'll go on to Mr. Bigras, please.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, given that you very rarely come before this committee, we had expected that you would be giving us good news with regard to the campaign against climate change. It is however clear that, in this area, you are dragging your feet as much as your predecessor, Ms. Ambrose.

She had promised us greenhouse gas emission reductions for large industrial emitters before the end of 2006. That was a first broken promise. Upon your appointment, you made a commitment to quickly announce targets. And here we are on March 22nd and no target has been brought forward, Mr. Minister.

My question is a simple one: are you not here today in fact proving to us that in the area of greenhouse gas reduction, particularly on the part of the large industrial emitters, you are dragging your feet as much as your predecessor?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I will not comment upon my colleague.

You stated at the beginning of your intervention that I did not come often before the committee. However, I have only been minister for 70 days and I believe that this is the first time I have been invited. It can therefore be said that my response was 100% positive. This is fantastic. If I had been invited earlier, I would have come.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

We could invite you every day, Mr. Minister. We would be most happy to do so.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You say that I do not come to the committee very often, but you sent me an invitation and I responded by saying that I would be pleased to come and answer your questions. This is the first time that you have invited me to appear over the course of these 70 days, and here I am. That is not bad.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I would not say that. We had to discuss your availability with the parliamentary secretary many times. Oddly, your availability never matched that of the committee.

That being said, answer the question. When are you going to announce targets for the larger industrial emitters?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You made a few comments in the beginning, and I would like to respond to them. As I said, I have only been minister for 70 days. I very clearly stated that my priority was greenhouse gas reductions and that I would be tabling as quickly as possible a regulatory plan for the industrial sector.

We have worked very hard. Department officials and colleagues from the Council of Ministers have participated in this effort. It will not be long before we present an industrial regulations plan for greenhouse gas reductions, and it will be a good plan. In any event, 70 days is not very long, sir.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

It is not long, but for a new government that made a commitment to dealing with climate change and the environment, it is a lot of time.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I devoted a lot of time—

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Let us move on to another issue, Mr. Minister. Let us come back to the matter of targets. You have chosen, and you stated this publicly, to base greenhouse gas emissions reductions on intensity rather than on a hard cap.

Do you realize that within your own department, the scenarios that are circulating indicate that a 15% reduction in emission intensity, for example in the tar sands sector, corresponds to a 179% increase in absolute greenhouse gas emissions? Do you not see that by implementing a system based upon intensity, you will be fooling people into believing that you are asking industry to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions whereas you are in fact allowing it to increase them while at the same time in fact moving even further away from the Kyoto Protocol targets?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

My aim is to achieve a true reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Do you recognize that you have been presented with scenarios indicating that a 15% reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from the oil and gas industry would bring about a 46% increase in greenhouse gas emissions for the period beginning in 2000 and ending in 2010? The approach that you are about to present to Canadians will not result in a reduction of greenhouse gas emissions: much to the contrary, it will lead to an increase in these emissions. Are you prepared to admit at least that much today?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Before drawing conclusions, it would perhaps be wise that you read the plan that is on the verge of being made public. I stated that, as Minister for the Environment, my objective was to achieve a true reduction in greenhouse gases. This is important.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I have listened to you over the last few weeks. You travelled a lot throughout Canada rather than making your announcements on Parliament Hill.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

And we granted Quebec more money than it had asked for.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I wish to take this opportunity to relay to you the following message. I hope that with the system and the approach you are adopting, Quebec will finally come out of this a winner. It is not the 350 million dollars that Quebec has received that will prevent Quebec's industrial sectors from becoming the losers. Quebec has made efforts in the past. Quebec's industrial sectors have reduced their greenhouse gas emissions by 7%. It is wrong to say that Quebec and its industrial sectors will be satisfied with 350 million dollars if the approach that you are in the process of implementing penalizes them.

I come back to my question. You travelled throughout Canada, outside of Quebec of course, to make announcements. What I see is that you have made virtually the same commitments as those made in years past, by the previous government. You have simply recycled the Liberals' former programs.

How can you convince us today that the good old method followed by the Liberals and which brought about a 27% increase in greenhouse gas emissions will as of now aim Canada towards a real reduction in greenhouse gas emissions?

I know that the Liberals will brag about now outlining absolute reduction caps. Your measures are exactly the same as those taken by Mr. Dion when he was Environment Minister. All you are doing is copying the Liberal Party's program. Do you acknowledge that?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Not at all. You talk of recycling, but with our ecoTrust Canada program, this is the first time that a province will be receiving funding from the government of Canada for provincial initiatives aimed at reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Provincial premiers made announcements on two occasions, and one of them stated that he had never received a cent for this type of initiative. We are ready, with your support, Mr. Bigras, to spend this money as soon as possible, in other words before the end of the current fiscal year.

I have taken into consideration the needs of the government of Quebec and those that were outlined in the House of Commons. The government of Canada will be working with the provinces and I am absolutely convinced that this is the right way to do things. Furthermore, we have allocated more money to Quebec than it had asked for.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

You are well aware, Mr. Minister, that money alone will not be enough for us to reach our Kyoto targets. The Liberals have shown us that misdirected spending can lead to a 27% increase in emissions. It is also a matter of the approach taken. Will the intensity-based targets that you are setting not favour, first and foremost, the oil companies?

Furthermore, you will be jeopardizing an emissions credit trading system if you do not set hard targets. The Europeans have already stated that a large number of agreements between emissions credit trading systems were required. With these intensity-based targets, are you not favouring the large polluters while at the same time jeopardizing the carbon credit trading system in Canada, which is fundamental if we want to reach our Kyoto targets?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I have already answered your question in stating that my personal goal is to bring about real greenhouse gas emission reductions in Canada. This is important. It is not simply a matter of money.

In the beginning, when our Government was elected, we made a commitment to the provinces. We have responded to the funding requests made by the province of Quebec and the Premier of Ontario. That is just one part. We are presently working on the drafting of the regulations and the development of programs and initiatives, many of which have already been made public. But there are still many more to come.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Bigras.

I would remind members that it's fairly lonesome up here when you don't come through the chair, and rather than getting into a one-on-one with the minister, could you come through the chair just to make us feel part of these hearings?

Mr. Cullen is next.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Through the chair to you, Minister, welcome. Thank you for being here.

I have a question around effectiveness and accountability. How much money in these estimates was spent on fighting the growth of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

This year the Government of Canada will spend about $3.336 billion on climate change and clean air.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Do you mean this year coming or the previous year?