Environment Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

You may have to wait for that response to weave into another answer, but we're out of time.

Thank you, Mr. Calandra.

We'll move now to Mr. McKay, for seven minutes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all.

Mr. Wells, what is ecological health?

[Alan Wells]

Ecological health to me means maintaining or restoring the property under discussion to a healthy state that it previously was in. That's it.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Buchanan, what's ecological health?

[Ian Buchanan]

Ecological health would be an outcome of a series of processes that result in a series of environmental functions and services, such as clean air, clean water, wildlife habitat, wildlife functions, fish habitat. It would be a balanced outcome that would easily be recognized as a functional ecosystem.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Is it in the act?

[Ian Buchanan]

Which act?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

This one.

[Ian Buchanan]

Ecosystem health is referenced in—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

But is it defined?

[Ian Buchanan]

No, it is not.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Wells might have one idea of what ecosystem health is, you might have another idea, and Mr. Noonan might have a third. So if no one really has a consistent definition of what ecosystem health is, how can you know whether you've achieved it?

[Ian Buchanan]

Through you, Mr. Chair, ecosystem health is a positive direction for the environment. It's based on some of the realities of the landscape, whether it be farming, whether it be the lack of vegetation, whatever the current state is. It demonstrates a net improvement.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Prior to this bill being tabled, there was a discussion chaired by the Honourable Peter Kent, then the Minister of Environment. The discussion paper went to great lengths to talk about the protection of ecological health in the Rouge; adopting a conservation-forward approach based on best international practice; maintaining, conserving, and restoring species and habitats within landscapes; having distinct ecological, cultural, scenic and community value; and encouraging and promoting active stewardship, etc.

I'm looking for something in the act that makes reference to that discussion paper. Do either of you see that?

[Alan Wells]

No, I don't see that clearly. That's why I made my recommendation.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

For whatever reason, between the discussion of the draft and the bill itself, the concept of ecological health seems to have been dropped for some sort of vague idea that the minister takes things into consideration. I'm not sure how that's going to work, to be honest with you. Some ministers may take things into consideration, and others may not take things into consideration. Is ecosystem health a priority? Is it the priority above all other priorities?

[Alan Wells]

I think it's a major priority, but we talked earlier about a balance in the park. There are other priorities that are important as well. The park has four fundamental pillars: natural heritage, cultural heritage—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Yes, I get that, but ecosystem health is only one priority along with a bunch of others.

[Alan Wells]

It is an important priority, obviously.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

But it's not “the” priority.

[Alan Wells]

It's not the predominant priority in an urban park. It is a very important priority.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

We're kind of caught in that. We don't actually know what ecosystem health is, and then we say, “Well, but it's not really a priority”, or, “Well, it's a priority with other priorities”. So it's a priority with other priorities where we don't actually know what the definition of it is. Are we—

[Alan Wells]

I think now we're confusing the details of the plan and the act. In the plan, there is a great deal of detail on the definition or the function of ecosystem health.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

If there is a lot of definition in the plan, why is that therefore not in the legislation? Plans come, plans go; legislation has to be passed by royal assent and it can only be amended.

[Alan Wells]

You're asking the wrong person. I suggest that it should be there.