Environment Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2014

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

You're exactly right. “How Much Habitat is Enough?” says that we need 30% of watershed and 10% or more for wetland cover. Currently, the Rouge watershed has only 13% forest cover and 1% wetland cover. So does the legislation ensure that we are moving towards that 30% and 10% to ensure long-term sustainability?

[Ian Buchanan]

Mr. Chair, we're certainly moving towards that. As far as the endgame goes and what the math will be, I'm not sure. I think what's important today, within the context of the park, is to look at what is achievable given the balance of the agriculture, the cultural heritage, and the natural heritage, and to come up with a formula that works. I think that's what the management plan, supported by the legislation, does. So the numbers are important, but the math needs to be redone.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

We'll get there eventually, hopefully, is what you're saying.

[Ian Buchanan]

Yes.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay, I've got it.

I have less than one minute.

From speaking with some aboriginal elders in the community and hearing you speak of cultural heritage, we know there is a sacred burial ground and village site within the park. Some of these elders would like to see an aboriginal education centre as part of the Rouge national urban park plan. Do you support that idea and do you think it's a good idea?

[Alan Wells]

I certainly support that idea. I'm encouraged to see that. Certainly in the draft management plan, there's a space for ongoing consultation with the first nations and aboriginal communities.

[Ian Buchanan]

I certainly support that idea. Since Parks Canada has been on the landscape for the Rouge Park, there's been a much more serious and aggressive engagement of first nations. It's been really encouraging. I would think this would be a perfect example of a great opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to our next question with Mr. Calandra, please.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

I want to go back to something raised by my colleague Mr. Chisu. I'm going to read from Minister Duguid's letter of September 2 to the minister, with respect to the position taken to halt the land transfers. He said: “This is a position that I have arrived at after discussions with stakeholders, local citizen groups, and staff”.

When I asked this question of the farmers last week, they told me they had not been contacted about this. They were not part of the input process.

I want to reiterate this for the record. Mr. Wells, as a former chair, were you part of the citizen group that advised the minister on holding back the transfer?

[Alan Wells]

I was not consulted on that process.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

So you were not one of them.

Mr. Buchanan, as a stakeholder, was York Region involved in this consultation process at all?

[Ian Buchanan]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

One hundred per cent.

Mr. Noonan, I want to confirm that.

[Larry Noonan]

No.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Wells, it's nice to have you back here. I didn't think I would ever say that. You and I started off on a very difficult footing when it came to the Rouge National Park, when I was elected in 2008—and I think you might agree now—because of the way I viewed how the Rouge had treated farmers in the past. One of those examples, of course, was the Bob Hunter Memorial Park, what I call the “Bob Hunter Park fiasco”. Some people might think differently, but that was an instance where about 600 acres of class 1 farmland was taken away from farmers, if I'm not mistaken. It was before your time, though, right?

[Alan Wells]

I came in just as the plans were starting to be implemented, but I'm certainly aware of the issue.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Farmers were evicted.

[Alan Wells]

There were farmers. I don't know if “evicted” is the right word. They ceased being able to farm that land. Several of them had their leases terminated.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

How was the reforestation done? Did you pay a contractor to do it?

[Alan Wells]

The way the Rouge Park Alliance operates.... Bob Hunter Memorial Park was fully restored. There are various forms of restoration. Some meadows were mainly treed by a number of contracts with NGO groups. There were no private for-profit contractors there. There was some restoration by Rouge Park staff, but mainly by agreements with two major NGOs—10,000 Trees for Rouge Valley and Save the Rouge Valley System.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you.

In 2012, I believe, while we were discussing the Rouge National Park, the province suggested that they wanted to be paid for the land, before they would transfer the land. I think they wanted a hundred million bucks for previous investments, and so on and so forth. There was, of course, no talk of ecological integrity before doing the transfer. They just wanted money for that. Had that ever been the case in previous transfers under previous governments?

[Alan Wells]

Lands were never transferred from the province to the Toronto and Region Conservation Authority and to the City of Markham. The issue of compensation was never discussed when we were in discussions with the province, the federal government, and your colleague Dr. Helena Jaczek, who represented the province on the board. I say “your colleague” because you both represent the same boards, with different colours or shades, apparently. But that never came up, nor did it come up in discussions with the Honourable Linda Jeffrey and her staff.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Buchanan, the region sometimes takes a bit of a hit from individuals who suggest it's always willing to take down trees and that there's not enough forest cover. I'm not sure, but perhaps you had a role in my own family farm, in reforesting 60 acres of class 1 farmland on our farm. That process was a lot different. We actually sat down with farmers in-between the two regional forests. There was a long process, and we sat down and worked with the farmers, and we ultimately came to a resolution together that it was in the best interests of the York Regional Forest to reforest these lands.

This is something that York Region does, and they do work with farmers when it makes sense. In your experience, do farmers stand in the way of maintaining a healthy environment, or are they more often than not partners in helping to maintain a healthy environment? They are not just good farmers, but also important in helping to maintain healthy environments.

[Ian Buchanan]

Through you, Mr. Chair, they are part of the solution. If we don't acknowledge that the farming community is the front line of environmental protection, we're missing the point. We've worked with farmers for many years, as well as many of the conservation organizations like Ontario Nature, Ducks Unlimited, and had some very significant wins, as York Region has had, through our greening strategy. Thanks for mentioning that. We've had some great successes there. We both learn and the environment wins. That is going to be an integral part of Rouge Park moving forward.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Yes.

Mr. Noonan, I was actually quite encouraged by some of the things that you said. A lot of people don't really know the important history in this area with respect to farming, and how important it was not just for the families that came a couple hundred years ago but well before that with our first nations, the Wendat people. I'm wondering if you've had any chance at all to talk with them about their farming operations. There was, of course, that documentary that a lot of us saw, the The Curse of the Axe, which outlined the massive amount of farming that was done 400 to 500 years ago. It goes back a long time.

I'm wondering if you had a chance to speak with them, as well as the heritage farm families.