Environment Committee on Nov. 24th, 2014

[Dale Harley]

Well, essentially virtually none are produced from the point of view that the methane is produced when material decays over a long period of time. We use an in-vessel composting technology as well. It's in vessel for approximately five to ten days, depending on what the feedstock is. As a result of that, we're not creating methane gas.

One thing we do capture and we want to capture is the ammonia we get from this waste. Our ammonia scrubbers remove that, and we produce a by-product called ammonium sulphate. That originally was material we would actually pay to have disposed. We've now received Canadian Food Inspection Agency certification for that and we sell that back to the agricultural community so they can put it onto their fields. So we're quite comfortable with the methodology we have.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Just before I let you go, with regard to the anaerobic exercise, I was presented with a concept. This guy was going to set up a facility opposite the Toronto Zoo and he was going to collect the zoo poo and dump it all, and then he had a contract with Loblaws to pick up all of their excess food waste and dump that in as well. The concept was to use the methane and I don't know what else to run a generator and feed the grid.

Do you have an opinion about that stuff?

[Dale Harley]

Yes, from the point of view that we do that ourselves in a number of our facilities in Europe, and in fact, one of our facilities that we're looking at building elsewhere in Canada will be including an AD component.

I might just say that it's a perception, diapers. You have to remember that this material is being processed at a minimum of 72 hours at 55°C, which kills all of the pathogens, kills salmonella, and everything that is bad. It's all tested before it can go to a farmer's field to be sure that you have destroyed this material.

That material, whether it is in the form of biosolids, which comes from your waste water treatment facilities, has a very high nutrient value. So don't say “boo to poo” because it does have the opportunity to make a positive contribution.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Conrad, I was interested in your comment about using the commercial application of solid waste and the energy that it could generate. I was given a presentation about cement facilities and they are highly energy intensive. They were hunting around for a bunch of garbage to use in their facility, so that the garbage, in effect, became a feedstock. You mentioned you had a small cement facility and I just wonder what your thoughts were on that.

[Larry Conrad]

Certainly, I've been working probably for the last 10 years trying to do some projects at a cement plant in Mississauga. There are some very serious political and social issues in the neighbourhood, but the technology is such that the last time we looked at it, it was taking waste wood from our waste streams: off-cuts from housing, stuff from your house, old furniture, etc.

We looked at whether or not we could use the waste wood in the cement kiln. It's a very valuable source of fuel for some concrete plants in the world. In Germany, I know the Herhof plants, for one, produce a product called Stabilat that's fed into the concrete plants. It's very definitely a very viable option.

In Quebec, there are a couple of plants doing that already. In Ontario, most of the plants are burning some liquid waste—waste fuels, solvents, and that sort of stuff—and they do so with the full approval of the ministry of the environment.

Just before the last election in Ontario, there was some work put forward to start looking at heavily industrialized sources burning coal. That sort of died with the election, but the object there was that they were going to exempt, with due course, some of those processes from some of the environmental approvals required to do it. It is a very valuable process around the world and I know it's being done in Quebec.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Can you take some of the carbon production and shoot it into the cement product as well?

[Larry Conrad]

The nice thing about concrete kilns—I'm not a concrete guy, I'm a garbage and landfill guy, so I don't really know 100% of the technology—is that when you put stuff into the kiln, it pretty much encapsulates the waste. You have to worry about some of the exhaust coming off, but the slag that comes out of the back side binds a lot of that material up, so really when it comes out you have concrete slag and some air emissions.

Over time, you can show that this is a very viable way of handling waste. We aren't doing it in Peel, but certainly there's an example, again, in Quebec of a concrete plant that's taking industrial waste and putting it through a Stabilat process essentially—it's not a Stabilat process, sorry. It's from a Vecoplan process. But they clean it up, produce a fuel, and burn it in the incinerator, so it's viable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Ms. Freeman.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Harley, am I correct in saying that in Canada you have only the composting technology, and that all the energy product technology is in the Netherlands? Is that right?

[Dale Harley]

Yes, at the moment, but I hope to have that situation changed. Talk to me in a couple of weeks' time.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I'm going to talk to you about it now. Why is that? What's stopping that from being the case? What can the government do to help you there?

[Dale Harley]

There are really two questions there.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Yes, there are two questions.

[Dale Harley]

Let me deal with the second one first that talks about help.

Your colleague was asking about financing, about sources of funding and what the government can do. There's actually an opportunity. Because we're a large integrated company with very deep pockets, we do what they call a lot of DBOO, or design, build, own, and operate. As a result, the taxpayer is not footing the capital costs associated with setting up one of these plants in the first place.

Another model that's used is P3s. We're actually working on one of those out west right now, and part of that does include the anaerobic digester, so we will be creating energy to go back into the grid.

I guess a third source of funding, one that's very near and dear to my heart because of my previous life, is infrastructure funding. Waste management is a very large, important piece of infrastructure that Canadians need to use. I would like to see more funding coming out of the infrastructure funds, not only to help build roads, waterways, and pipelines, but also to help with the infrastructure for waste management.

I think I answered both those questions at the same time, didn't I?

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Yes. My question was, more specifically, were there any barriers? But I guess it's—

[Dale Harley]

Yes. The answer to that is the first two plants.... Typically we build plants for municipal clients, and it was at their specifications, which did not have an energy-to-waste requirement. Therefore, we did not do it. But for some other ones we are looking at, it is a requirement, so we're just being responsive to what our clients are asking us to do.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Sorry, it just made me think a little bit about.... The Federation of Canadian Municipalities was here last week and they were talking about the need for long-term predictable funding. I'm seeing nods, but I guess that's something that is a general ask for private and for municipalities.

[Dale Harley]

Due to my other lives—one as a municipal politician and another as a lobbyist for infrastructure—I am a big proponent of the federal infrastructure programs. Please find a way to work together with the provinces and municipalities and get that funding out for us.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Great.

This question is to both of you and follows where Ms. Ambler's questions ended. Is there a role the federal government has in making sure we are encouraging citizens to participate in recycling and reuse programs? Is there anything we can do, from both your perspectives?

[Dale Harley]

Actually, I think I alluded to it—or I tried not to allude to it; I tried to be very specific about it. That is to institute a national coordinated program where you force people to ban waste going to landfills and to increase diversion. I gave you a couple of examples of how it's being done in Europe. The easiest thing to do is to get people to vote with their pocketbooks.

When I was a municipal councillor, I introduced a tag-a-bag program. My constituents absolutely hated me for doing that. They said that it was going to cost them, that they were paying taxes already. Once they saw how it worked and the fact that the municipal waste was taken off their tax bill, they saw they were getting a credit for that. They saw how, just by putting in a little bit of effort to divert, they were saving dollars. It makes a lot of good sense.

If we can create that environment on a national basis to encourage more municipalities, to encourage either with a carrot or with a stick, we'll translate that into more people participating in programs.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Does Mr. Conrad have enough time to answer as well?

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

He does.

[Larry Conrad]

I believe a couple of things need to be done. I think one of the things is that the national carbon credit registry would go a long way in exciting people on that. There are some investment opportunities around North America for greenhouse gas credits.

The other thing is that we just need a solid, concerted effort to remind people of the environment more often. We need to make them aware of life choices. You see a lot of things right now around organic waste, especially around protecting, not over-consuming, organics, kitchen materials, vegetables—those kinds of things. Those are policies and programs that need to be taken everywhere, not just one municipality to another municipality. It has to be a concerted effort.

I think both of those things would bring some interest.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you.

We'll move to Mr. Sopuck for five minutes, please.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Thanks.

Regarding the goal of 100% diversion, why aren't we at 100% right now, given how...?

Mr. Conrad, you talked about the job benefits and the environmental benefits and all the benefits. So why aren't we there now?