Environment Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2020

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Bradley, I've got a minute left. Alectra in Guelph has a smart grid that's being introduced where we could sell power to our neighbours using blockchain technology. Having dual meters—I have solar panels on my roof at home—we could have a charging station here. If we have more power than the home needs, we could sell it to our neighbours. Have you seen this as an opportunity through the electrical suppliers?

[Francis Bradley]

Yes, absolutely.

That is the future. When I talk about areas of regulation that need to be updated, the electricity regulatory regime that you see across the provinces does not take into account the two-way flow of power, for example. A lot of these are currently running as pilot projects, but again that's the kind of regulation that we need to update for the future to be able to allow this two-way flow of power.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

That's terrific.

Thank you, all.

I'll go back to you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much for being that efficient.

We now have Madame Pauzé for two and a half minutes.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I asked Mr. Kingston for some documentation, so I want to make sure he provides it. I hope this reminder isn't deducted from my time.

I have two questions, one for Ms. Kyriazis and one for Mr. Allan.

Ms. Kyriazis, Transport Canada officials told us last week that limited supply was a barrier. In your brief, you talk about how the policy should be designed. You give options for implementing the policy: either adopting the California model or introducing a new regulatory measure under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act.

Is one of the options more conducive to achieving the target for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions?

[Joanna Kyriazis]

I believe you're talking about the options of a zero-emission vehicle standard that require a growing portion of zero-emission vehicle sales year after year, or fuel efficiency standards.

Both are very effective policies, and Canada could choose to pursue either or could choose to move forward solely under vehicle emission regulations. That's the approach that—

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I see. Thank you. I gather, then, that it's not possible to say which of the two options would be more effective. To determine that, both options could be put to the test.

Mr. Allan, we've been told that people are somewhat afraid of not having access to charging stations. Governments have made considerable investments on that front. In the 2019 budget, $130 million was allocated to Natural Resources Canada and $30 million was allocated in the 2017 budget. Now the Infrastructure Bank has announced $1.5 billion for charging infrastructure.

With all the resources being deployed at this point, is their fear still warranted? In other words, do consumers have reason not to buy an electric vehicle because they don't think there will be enough charging infrastructure?

[Travis Allan]

When consumers who are considering whether to buy an EV are surveyed, they will consistently tell you that range anxiety, the concern about the ability to charge, is a major factor in their decision-making.

There have been some very important investments made, particularly by NRCan, that have helped to expand the network of EV charging stations across Canada. There's still a lot more to do.

In Quebec, which is the large province that has the most—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

We have to cut it very short.

Thank you, we are going over the time.

Madam Collins, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to follow up on the question to Ms. Kyriazis about second-hand vehicle purchases. Fifty percent of Canadians live paycheque to paycheque. The cost of rent, child care and other essentials are rising, for many people, purchasing a new vehicle, whether it's gas or electric, really isn't an option. Even with more government incentives for new purchases, the high cost of these vehicles will still make them out of reach for them.

In addition to what I see as a very concrete step, which would be to put incentives on second-hand vehicles, what other things can we be doing to ensure that electric vehicles aren't just for those who can afford a purchase of tens of thousands of dollars?

[Joanna Kyriazis]

Another option that we can take is to modify the current federal rebate program, the iZEV program, and introduce a means test or scale to income such that low- and middle-income Canadians can access a larger incentive to go towards the vehicle. Various jurisdictions have taken this approach.

I would be happy to provide further information, if that's useful.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I would love it if you could send the committee some additional information on that.

Along those lines, we learned last week from the government that it isn't tracking the income of the people who are buying electric vehicles, and I'm curious if either Clean Energy Canada, or perhaps, Mr. Kingston, if the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association has any data on the income levels of the people who are purchasing and receiving incentives.

[Joanna Kyriazis]

Clean Energy's response is, unfortunately, no. Clean Energy Canada does not have that data to share.

[Brian Kingston]

Unfortunately, we don't have that data either.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Collins, you have 30 seconds.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

This is for Mr. Kingston because I was asking you a question when you had a little bit of technical difficulty.

Here on Vancouver Island, I spoke to someone who was trying to buy an electric vehicle. They were told they would have to wait three months before driving it off the lot. Because the SCRAP-IT program here runs out after a few months in the beginning of the year, they were worried they wouldn't be able to get the incentive.

I'm curious about your comments—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I'm so sorry, your time is over.

Thank you very much.

We now go to Monsieur Godin for five minutes, please.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Mr. Kingston, whom we lost a moment ago.

I'm quite glad to see you again, Mr. Kingston. Welcome to the other witnesses, as well. I may have questions for them too.

Mr. Kingston, I'd like your opinion on something. If the supply of electric vehicles for sale in British Columbia, Quebec, Ontario and the rest of the provinces increases, will the vehicles sell?

[Brian Kingston]

The key really is achieving price parity with ICE vehicles. You could increase the supply of high-end vehicles across Canada that sell at a $50,000 to $70,000 price point. Supply doesn't create demand. It's the other way around. The price point needs to come down due to technology and incentives. Then you'll start to see demand.

One other thing that I haven't mentioned is that there is also a big education component here to address consumer concerns around things like range anxiety, charging and so on. There are multiple levers here, but the key is achieving price parity.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You represent private companies. The government wants to support development in this area to lower greenhouse gas emissions and achieve the net-zero emissions target by 2050. I think it's a utopian target, but one we have to believe in to achieve more sustainable development. It's quite commendable.

How much support must the government lend private companies before it sees results? Goodness knows that the federal government has been very generous to you in the past, and in some circumstances, rightfully so. Now, where is the tipping point? The ZEV sales target for 2030 is 30%. In the subsequent 10 years, sales have to go up another 70%. Does that mean the industry currently needs investments, programs, incentives and restrictions as far as manufacturers go? Eventually, enough momentum will have built up and the government will be able to withdraw its support.

We have a free market, and I have faith in consumers, so my question is this: Where is the tipping point?

[Brian Kingston]

You have framed this exactly correctly. We are in a transition period because the cost of technology is so high. The government's role right now is to help accelerate that transition period by offering incentives to bring that price point down.

We will reach a point where a ZEV is directly comparable to an ICE vehicle. All of the concerns that consumers have around range and charging infrastructure will have been dealt with. At that point there will be no need for any sort of federal incentive because a consumer going to a dealership will have two choices and both will be extremely comparable from features through to price.

We're in this transition period. That's what is critical now and that's why government support is needed.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I see a problem. Right now, consumers in British Columbia and Quebec—to bring the discussion back to those two provinces—have to wait between three and six months to buy a vehicle. They're all ready to go. Yes, there is an incentive, but I have no doubt that many consumers would buy an electric vehicle even without the incentive. The industry is resistant, and it bothers me that the industry is waiting for government subsidies before it goes any further.

What is your industry prepared to do to really put electric vehicles on Canada's roads?

[Brian Kingston]

I would argue that there isn't resistance from industry. I outlined some of the investments that are being made by Ford, General Motors and FCA. We're talking about tens of billions of dollars into electrification programs—investments like we have never seen before. They are fully committed and fully on board.

With respect to wait times—and I wanted to address this earlier—ZEVs still represent 3% of all new vehicle purchases in Canada. If you went to buy any other vehicle that sold in such low volumes, you would also likely face a wait time because these are still very much unique cars that aren't in demand compared to some of the top-selling vehicles in Canada.

With demand so low, we are just not at the point yet where there's going to be a supply at that level. It's really important to note that because it tends to get overlooked at times. It's still 3.2% of total vehicle sales.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

We now go to Mr. Saini for five minutes.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for your presentations today.

My question, to begin with, is for Clean Energy Canada.

One of the purposes of this study is to study ZEV standards to increase supply. There's been a lot of discussion about supply. Can you give me a commentary of the knowledge you have? Do you feel that ZEV standards would actually increase supply in Canada?