Environment Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2020

[Francis Bradley]

Oh, yes, absolutely. It's something that we're in active discussions about with the departments, with Measurement Canada. We've developed some very specific recommendations.

As I said, we'll have included those in that information we provided to the clerk.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

It's funny, because it seems so straightforward yet it requires regulation. It's not intuitively easy to understand.

Ms. Kyriazis, I believe I read in your brief that no automotive dealers have electric cars that you can take for a test run.

Is that correct? Is that what I read in your brief?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have 30 seconds to respond.

[Joanna Kyriazis, Senior Policy Advisor, Clean Energy Canada]

Yes, according to a study done by Transport Canada earlier this year, the majority of car dealerships across Canada—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

A majority, okay.

[Joanna Kyriazis]

Yes. A majority had not a single EV in stock to test drive or purchase.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Interesting.

Well, I guess my time's up, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Yes. Thank you very much.

We now go to Madame Pauzé.

You have six minutes.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Good afternoon. Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I would just point something out to Mr. Kingston. A number of key players in the industry, including BloombergNEF, have indicated that they will achieve the much talked-about price parity in 2024, perhaps sooner, with battery prices dropping every year. The late 2020s was the time frame you gave. I think that's a bit far in the future.

I have another comment. You said automakers were providing better purchase incentives than governments were. I actually have an electric vehicle, a Volt, but I don't recall receiving any incentives from the automaker. If such incentives are available, could you please provide a list?

Now I'll get to my questions.

In 2018, one of your members, General Motors, recommended that Canada adopt a system similar to California's, to bring Canada in line with the United States should it introduce a national mandate. Your association's former president, Mr. Nantais, never wanted to put GM's proposal to his members. He was even against Canada doing anything before the U.S. made a decision.

You are the president now. Do you hold the same view as your predecessor?

[Brian Kingston]

With respect to our alignment with the U.S., our position is that we must remain totally aligned with the U.S. at all times. This industry is completely integrated throughout North America, and 86% of the vehicles that we produce here in Canada end up in the U.S. We've always cautioned about moving too quickly ahead of the U.S. but staying in lockstep with them, given that our industry is totally integrated into the U.S. market.

With respect to your point about technology, you're absolutely right. There are many different projections around when we will reach price parity. It varies. It varies depending on certain assumptions around the technology advancing. I can't give you a fixed date, but between 2025 and 2030 is generally where most studies seem to be landing. However, I recognize that there are a lot of different perspectives on that.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes, absolutely, but I mentioned BloombergNEF, which is a key player, after all.

You mentioned investments in Ontario. Ford recently announced investments in Ontario but did not say whether the vehicles manufactured there would be available to Canadians. Bear in mind that, in 2011, Toyota manufactured RAV4s in Ontario, but they were all sent to California because of the state's rules favouring that type of vehicle. It was a zero-emission RAV4.

Would you be supportive if Canada were to adopt rules similar to California's, to ensure electric vehicles manufactured here were available to consumers here?

[Brian Kingston]

With respect to the Ford investment, I can't comment on a company-specific strategy on where they will sell the vehicles. The key for electric vehicles—and this goes to my previous point—is that they will be sold where consumer incentives are high enough to entice more people to purchase them. If Canada were to put in place a more generous set of consumer incentives, both at the federal and provincial level, to bring that price point down, then I guarantee you that we would see much higher adoption here in Canada. In fact, 96% of the sales in Canada have taken place in three provinces where we have EV consumer incentives. That, to me, is the key lever to make sure that Canadians are purchasing those vehicles.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'd like to jump in there.

Right now, in Canada, most electric vehicles are sold in Quebec and British Columbia, because they incentivize the vehicles through zero-emission vehicle mandates. The other provinces don't have such mandates. I will talk about what happened in Ontario in a moment.

According to the Dunsky report, when Premier Ford eliminated the subsidies for electric vehicles, EV availability dropped by 24%, but sales rose. People still wanted the vehicles, but they were in short supply. Why did that happen?

You could have taken the vehicles that were already in Ontario and sent them to other markets in Canada. Isn't that true?

[Brian Kingston]

Well, in Ontario, sales declined quite significantly once that incentive came off. That incentive was extremely powerful. You saw a little bit of an uptick when the federal iZEV program came on, but we're still nowhere close to where we were when the incentive was in place.

I would argue that because the price point of these vehicles remains relatively high, mandates are not what encourage sales. Your average Canadian who is going to purchase a new vehicle doesn't walk into the dealership looking to spend $50,000. When there's an incentive in place, you bring that price point down to a cost that your average Canadian can afford. That's where your see sales increase. To me, incentive is the key.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do I have time for any more questions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

No. Your time is up.

We now go to the second round of questioning.

For five minutes, we have Mr. Albas.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I have a point of order.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

No, I think the NDP—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Sorry. I'm so sorry.

Ms. Collins, I must be looking at my watch and going what...?

The six minutes is yours.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question is for Clean Energy Canada, and it's specifically about the quote from Transport Canada in your briefing, which is that “without any further action, Canada could achieve zero-emissions vehicle sales of 4% to 6% of all new light-duty vehicles purchased by 2025 and 5% to 10% by 2030”. That is in no way on track to meeting our target of selling 100% zero-emission vehicles by 2040. It's in no way close to the targets set for each of those years, for 2025 and 2030.

When we spoke with Transport Canada last week, they seemed.... They framed it as that they're making good progress. I’m wondering if you think this is good progress.

In the briefing, you spoke about the need for a kind of package of policies that drives long-term investment and adoption of clean cars. I'm curious, first of all, if you think that's good progress, and then also what you see as the most important actions that the federal government can be taking towards meeting these ZEV targets.

[Joanna Kyriazis]

Thanks very much for the question.

I would agree with the interpretation that a 1% increase in EV sales or market share per year isn't particularly good progress and certainly isn't getting us on track to meeting our zero-emission vehicle sales targets by 2025, let alone by 2030 and 2040.

If we look at the jurisdictions within Canada and abroad, including the EU and China, those jurisdictions that are seeing the greatest uptake of zero-emission vehicles are implementing a package of clean car policies that includes purchase incentives and large investments in public charging stations. They are also addressing the supply side of electric vehicles by moving forward with either a zero-emission vehicle standard that requires automakers to sell an increasing percentage of zero-emission vehicles and/or having very ambitious vehicle greenhouse gas emission regulations.

That's the approach the EU is taking. It’s moving forward with very strong vehicle emission standards that essentially require the sale of a certain percentage of zero-emission vehicles for automakers to comply. That's where EV sales are really rising and where the domestic auto sectors are best positioned to compete in the future economy.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Kingston, you said in your brief that the supply of electric vehicles is meeting demand, but we heard from Clean Energy Canada that the majority of car dealerships in the country don't have a single electric car available to even take for a test drive. Even here in B.C., where we have maybe a few more car dealerships with test-driveable cars, Canadians purchasing an electric car are facing three- to six-month-long wait lists before they can drive their car home.

I'm curious about the statement that we are meeting demand for electric vehicles, or that this demand is being met. Can you explain a little why there is so little availability across the country?

[Joanna Kyriazis]

Was the question what can we do to ensure that dealerships have more electric vehicles in stock?

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Yes, can you explain the lack of availability and what we can do about it.