Evidence of meeting #119 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
In that case, I will give the rest of my speaking time to someone else.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
That's kind of you, Ms. Pauzé, since our schedule is quite tight today.
Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor for six minutes.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is for Ms. Ray.
Ms. Ray, in recent meetings, we have often heard first nations representatives say that healthy boreal caribou are proof of a healthy forest.
How important is the protection of the boreal caribou species for the vitality of our forests?
President and Senior Scientist, Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, As an Individual
It is very important, because caribou are rather sensitive to a lot of human disturbances, including the combined effects of increased fire and human disturbances like roads and so forth, so when caribou populations begin to decline—they're at the leading edge because of their sensitivities—it's usually a very good indicator of other less prominent properties of the ecosystem that are also starting to decline.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Ray.
I would like to ask you another question. It's about the importance of the type of land that needs to be protected for caribou.
Shouldn't we be working on two things—not only the interconnectivity of the land where the caribou can travel, but also old-growth forests being available for the caribou—instead of sending them to random areas filled with saplings?
President and Senior Scientist, Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, As an Individual
Caribou are very sensitive to increasing amounts of disturbance and habitat loss, as I previously said, so the biggest service to them is to actually limit disturbance over larger areas. Certainly older-growth, contiguous areas of forest are most important for them, because once those start to degrade, then the system changes to one that allows in more predators and early successional species like moose, deer and so forth, and that can then lead to unsustainable levels of predation.
That's why the habitat becomes very important, because the larger the areas you have of these older, mature forests that also produce food for these animals, the better the habitat is in the long run.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Ray.
We find ourselves in an extremely interesting situation. Many ministers, from both the Government of Quebec and the federal government, have taken part in international conferences where they have made grand speeches on climate change and the protection of biodiversity. However, when it's time to talk about concrete measures, we sense a bit of hesitation and more difficulty.
I have a question for the FTQ representatives. I'm sorry, Mr. Bolduc, but I'll put my question to Mr. Rondeau.
We, in the NDP, were quite pleased to see the proposed Canadian Sustainable Jobs Act, which could have been called the just transition act, but it did not go as far as we would have liked. We were pleased to see that unions' place at the table would be preserved as part of the conversation on the energy transition and sustainable jobs. However, the Liberals did half the job, so that today, the federal government is coming in empty-handed in terms of solutions for the workers whose jobs are at stake in the current situation, when the goal is to protect the boreal caribou.
What would you like us to do to go further in the energy transition, in the just transition, in protecting workers?
Patrick Rondeau Union Advisor, Environment and Just Transition, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Thank you very much, Mr. Boulerice.
You're absolutely right in saying that this is a piece of legislation on sustainable jobs that resembles a statute on just transition, but it is not one. It's not like what we are seeing, for example, in the European Union, South Africa or New Zealand. It lacks rigour. In addition, it is only looking forward. In other words, it gives consideration only to sustainable jobs that are defined as jobs that can contribute to the net-zero road map, and leaves out jobs that do not contribute to it. Those jobs are not on the radar. The word “transition” also doesn't appear anywhere in the bill. That says a lot.
To demonstrate rigour, a study on the impact of climate change on the socio-economic and environmental aspects of the forest industry related to the protection of caribou should have been done a long time ago. Based on that impact study, adaptation scenarios for the species and decarbonization scenarios would then have to be developed. Afterwards, it would have been necessary to conduct studies on those scenarios' impact on jobs, to make the necessary corrections, as well as to introduce corrective measures for the territory. That is what is being done elsewhere. It's nothing new. We see it quite often with the European Union. In short, that rigour is lacking.
To demonstrate such rigour, all the stakeholders must also be involved. It's not just a matter of getting people around the table and seeing who is thinking about what. Rather, the process involves conducting the necessary studies and bringing people to the table to find solutions that suit everyone. That's what's missing.
We should have learned from what happened in the coal industry. In 2017, Catherine McKenna, who was then Minister of Environment and Climate Change, announced the closure of coal plants by 2030. A year later, thousands of jobs were lost in Alberta. That happened because, once again, an environmental measure was announced without any plan and without including those who would be affected. Those things didn't come until later. Even then, although the report of the task force on just transition for Canadian coal power workers and communities talked about setting up local or regional centres to have that discussion and plan the transition, it still hasn't happened.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
You have only 10 seconds of speaking time left, Mr. Boulerice. So we will move on to the second round of questions.
Since we have three witness panels today, our schedule is very tight and we don't have much wiggle room. As a result, I have to cut the time allotted to each member by 40%. So each member will have three minutes. The Bloc Québécois and NDP members will have a minute and a half.
Mr. Godin, you have the floor.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for participating in this exercise. I will be very brief.
Ms. Ray, my first question is for you, and I would like you to keep you answer very short.
In your presentation, you said that the intervention provided for under the order was not radical. How likely is the proposed order to be successful?
President and Senior Scientist, Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, As an Individual
It's not radical, from the point of view of the emergency that is facing caribou, when we look at the evidence. As I said, at the end—
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
I'm sorry, Ms. Ray, but my question is simple: What is the likelihood of this order succeeding in saving boreal caribou?
President and Senior Scientist, Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, As an Individual
As I indicated in my remarks, this is a stopgap measure. It is enough to tread water for a very brief period of time and will require systemic changes.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you, Ms. Ray. I would have liked to get a more specific answer, but I'll move on.
My next question is for Mr. Bouchard, from the Association québécoise des entrepreneurs forestiers.
Mr. Bouchard, you said that many businesses would be directly impacted. In terms of the economic impact on the regions of Quebec, how many people and villages do you estimate will be affected, and how much money will be lost?
Director, Association québécoise des entrepreneurs forestiers
In the impact analysis that the federal government itself published, it talked about 1,400 workers and 28 communities. We estimate that about 100 small businesses will definitely suffer economic repercussions from this order. In our view, the cure is worse than the disease.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
My next question is for Mr. Duceppe, from the CSN.
In your opening remarks, you said that the CSN was in favour of the emergency order. Is that true?
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you, Mr. Duceppe. That's good. I have another question for you.
How many CSN members are involved in the forest industry?
Treasurer, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Are you talking about the union members impacted by the order?
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
How many CSN unionized employees will be directly or indirectly affected by the emergency protection order for boreal caribou?
Treasurer, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Few will be directly impacted, but many may be impacted in the long term.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Okay. I understand why you approve of this order. Thank you very much, Mr. Duceppe.
Now I have a question for Mr. Bolduc.
Mr. Bolduc, it was music to my ears when you said that you had no praise for the Liberal Party of Canada.
I would like you to tell me about the just transition policy.
What can the FTQ suggest to us to help us improve and work to protect both boreal caribou and the forestry industry?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Unfortunately, the answer will have to wait, as it is now Mr. Drouin's turn for three minutes.
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Ray, when answering the question asked by the previous speaker, Mr. Godin, about the likelihood of this order's success, you said that it was a stopgap measure. What do you mean by that?