Environment Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to a second round. Since there are only 15 minutes left in this first hour of the meeting, we're going to reduce the speaking time to three minutes for the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party, and to one and a half minutes for the Bloc Québécois and the NDP.

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mulligan, in your testimony earlier you mentioned that your association had identified problems as early as 2017 and predicted what happened last year.

What led you to those conclusions and to that prediction, which unfortunately came to be? What did the government do or not do to deal with what you predicted?

[Brock Mulligan]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Deltell.

We made those predictions when speaking with a number of experts in our industry, as well as folks living in the community who were looking at the condition of the forest in Jasper, seeing effectively a hillside of red and dead trees and predicting that it was very likely to burn.

That's how that prediction came about, and we're very sad that it was realized. Jasper's a place where folks in our industry go to recreate. Our association has had our annual general meeting there for the last 50 years, and we're just so sad to see what's happened there. Unfortunately, it was something that we could see coming.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mulligan. It's obviously very disappointing to see that, for six or seven years, those who had the power to act had everything they needed to take action, but they didn't.

Mr. Chair, I'll give the rest of my time to Mr. Soroka.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

My question is for MLA Sweet.

Do you believe it was hypocritical for the federal NDP leader to question the energy sector about the fire in Jasper, while he was in a coalition with the Liberal government that enabled the mismanagement of the fire in Jasper and the failed forest management policies?

[Heather Sweet]

Thank you for the question.

What I will say is that the people of Jasper are focused on rebuilding their community, on getting a strong economy, on housing and on getting Jasper ready for tourism. I don't think turning this into a partisan conversation is helpful for the people of Alberta and for the people of Jasper.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay. However, it works very well for the NDP leader to turn it partisan—that's fine.

My next question, then, will be for Brock Mulligan.

With your organization, you have talked about how the fire was eventually going to happen if there wasn't proper mitigation. What are some of the issues that you or your organization could have dealt with to make sure that the fire in Jasper did not burn the town?

[Brock Mulligan]

I think we advocated for a more comprehensive forest management strategy within the park that would have looked at a variety of different tools—prescriptive burning, incorporation of knowledge from indigenous communities and perhaps more harvesting. Those were the kinds of things that we looked at.

The second point is that we see other areas in Alberta, particularly within some of those caribou zones, where we now have these older forests that are posing similar risks to what we saw in Jasper. Some action needs to be taken to address those, or we're going to relive this scenario over and over again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Taylor Roy, you have the floor.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. I wanted to start with one question for Ms. Sweet.

You mentioned—as I think did my colleague, Ms. McPherson—the low pay for wildland firefighters in Alberta. Why do you think Alberta, which has such a high risk for forest fires, has the lowest-paid firefighters, with fewer benefits and less training?

I find it perplexing, and I'm just wondering if you have any theories as to why they are underpaid. It seems to me that they are a little bit undervalued, without having any coverage for cancer either.

[Heather Sweet]

I think a culture shift needs to happen in the province. Right now, a lot of the individuals who have been hired are part-time students and summer students, so the position of wildland firefighter has been treated as such. They hire at a university. They hire them for the summer, and then the students go back to university. The government treats it almost like a summer job for students, and it's not a summer job for students. It is a very serious profession that requires a lot of serious training. We need supports, and we need to ensure that's happening.

For us to respect the profession, we need to pay better, and we need to be doing year-round training. I've been calling for a year-round wildfire fighting force, no different from what B.C. has, because our ecosystems in B.C. and Alberta are very similar. We should be treating them in exactly the same way.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you. I noticed that the firefighting budget in Alberta had gone down consistently until 2023 when you had those series of fires, and then it was increased. Now it is probably still, when you're looking at real dollars, less than it was back in 2018.

Does that play into this kind of summer job perspective on firefighters, rather than seeing it as a profession, which should be year-round and have benefits? Do you think it's driven by financial considerations?

[Heather Sweet]

I believe that the budget, for sure, is part of the discussion, as I believe it would be for every government. I think it is just a lack of understanding or a lack of willingness to really shift the culture around the profession. To be fair, these climate events that we are having are becoming more and more frequent. Definitely, there needs to be a policy shift. There needs to be a financial shift. There needs to be a commitment from the government, and there needs to be year-round wildland firefighting with good training and support, including presumptive coverage for firefighters.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'd like to turn to Mr. Wesley—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'm sorry, Ms. Taylor Roy. We're having a three-minute round. I had to reduce it so that we can finish on time.

Mr. Trudel, you have a minute and a half. So you have time for one question.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Okay.

Ms. Sweet, I'd like to come back to you about the illustrious truck we were discussing earlier. The “Scrap the cap” message on that truck was propaganda against the oil and gas emissions cap regulations. However, that's odd, because those regulations haven't even been implemented by the Liberal government yet. They don't exist yet. The Prime Minister's claim to the contrary at the United Nations in New York was simply not true.

The Bloc Québécois believes that carbon pollution can be reduced by gradually reducing the production of fossil fuels that cause climate change. We're therefore in favour of an emissions cap in the oil and gas sector. What's more, we're concerned that the Minister of the Environment has yet to implement regulations on the cap.

We were very surprised and quite disappointed to learn that the Government of Alberta was participating in what appears to be a campaign of fear and disinformation about the effects of climate policy. What do you think about this?

[Heather Sweet]

What I can say is that, when we were in government, we created a climate leadership plan that specifically worked with industry on reducing their emissions. The oil and gas industry in Alberta, our forestry companies, all in our resource sector are very aware of how they can reduce their emissions, and they are working towards those goals. When we were in government, we worked in collaboration to support industry in doing that, and they were happy to do it.

If the provincial government wants to continue to fight with the feds and not engage in what is actually good economic policy and what actually supports environmental directives, that is the prerogative of our premier. What I would say is that we believe in climate change, and we believe we need to do our best to ensure that industry is successful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. McPherson for a minute and a half.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Sweet, you talked about the different levels of government having to work well together.

I think this is something a lot of Albertans were very concerned about during the wildfires. There was a lot of finger pointing and blaming happening, and not a lot of focus on getting help to the people of Jasper and ensuring the right things were happening. You just responded to my colleague and talked a bit about getting into fights with the federal government. It is one of the favourite pastimes, as we've seen, of some provincial leaders.

I wonder if you could spend the next few seconds talking about what you saw regarding the way the federal government and the provincial government worked together on this particular crisis.

[Heather Sweet]

What I will say is that, in my experience hearing from people, those in Jasper understand it was an event that had a lot of decision points happening within it. In fact, they recognize that the work done to save the townsite was the best that could happen. It was a high-risk situation. There was a lot of decision-making happening in that moment.

I've heard from people living in Jasper that they're disappointed to now hear criticisms being made about not allowing first responders to come in, save the townsite and do different things like that. That is not the case. I will say that we need to be respectful of our individual first responders, who were working with both Parks Canada and the province. They were doing the best they could in the situation they were in. Many of them were trapped.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Soroka, go ahead for three minutes.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question will go to Ms. Friedel.

You mentioned there wasn't a proper fireguard put around the Jasper townsite itself. Through traditional knowledge and its use, what would your organization have recommended doing to protect the town of Jasper?

[Dr. Tracy L. Friedel]

Thank you, Mr. Soroka, for the question.

I think indigenous peoples, as part of the forum, recognized that prescribed burning wasn't happening quickly enough. As I said, there were tensions between doing what needed to be done and disappointing visitors to the park. Even today, if you look at the west side of Jasper, which didn't burn..... There is still a high-risk situation there, and something will need to be done.

I want to take this chance, if I could, to.... Regarding the legislation that was passed to designate the municipality's land use, there was no consultation with indigenous peoples, which was somewhat disappointing. I think the opportunity to rebuild is an opportunity to fulfill the commitments made to reconciliation in terms of economic reconciliation and development of businesses around indigenous interpretation. As we heard, tourism is a very big opportunity and mainstay in the park. Hopefully, there will be more of that.

In my experience with the forum, most of the communities recognize that more needed to be done regarding the fireguard situation. Hopefully, going forward, that will be the case.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Ms. Friedel, are you saying that the government pays lip service to proper indigenous consultation, as opposed to actually following through and doing a proper job?

[Dr. Tracy L. Friedel]

What I would say, Mr. Soroka, is that the Jasper wildfire has been devastating. It's tragic. It has great impacts and so forth. I also see it as an opportunity to fulfill commitments, as I said, that have already been made to reconciliation.

I think that's what we're all hoping to see.