Environment Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2024

[Lindsey Gartner]

Sure. What it really points to is that the people who know the community best are locals. Those are the people who are going to drive forward changes and recovery. Empowering them and giving them the spotlight is the most important thing. Other narratives take power and change-making capacity away from local communities.

To reinforce what Amy and Dane both said, a lot of these solutions lie in empowering our local communities and our indigenous knowledge holders, centralizing their ability to understand a relationship with the landscape and being the leaders in that.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you very much, Lindsey.

I have one final question. As a Jasperite, would you like us to continue to have these meetings and partisan conversations about what happened to Jasper, or would you like us to wrap it up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Lindsey Gartner]

I would like you to wrap it up.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I'd like to thank all the witnesses who came here today to talk about this very important topic.

Mr. de Souza, I'll start with you. When we talk about the wildfires and what happened in Jasper, I think co‑operation is key, not only between the federal and provincial governments, but also with indigenous partners. This is needed to prevent and prepare for potential fires. As you surely know, we have 11 indigenous nations in Quebec, and many of them have been and will be affected by forest fires. So we need to work with them. I think we can all learn from each other.

In your opinion, what's been done well—there's no reason we can't talk about that too—in terms of forest fire prevention, and what hasn't been done well or at all? Finally, what needs to be done, in this spirit of co‑operation between all partners, to prevent situations like what happened in Jasper?

[Dane de Souza]

What could have been done isn't really in the context of the time frame that's being discussed here. What can be done is what I've mentioned: investing in those ground-level, long-term, sustained roles in wildfire management that take into account local realities, that decentralize decision-making and that incorporate indigenous knowledge of the landscape and the factors that affect wildfires and how they behave on the landscape.

It's really about relationship building. It's about truth and reconciliation, and it's about understanding that, right now, these conversations live and die at liability. That's where the buck really stops when it comes to prevention. So many indigenous fire stewards, communities and wildfire practitioners are waiting, raring to go, to put fire on the land to prevent these disasters and prevent these tragedies, but it all stops with liability.

You have forest rangers who make virtually nothing. They have two-year diplomas. It's an old boys' club. They get a proposal for a burn that comes onto their desks, and they have to pick up the liability for that. They know darn well that this is a politicized event. If it goes over two hectares of the control lines, that's their pension. That's food on their table that they have to consider when they're signing off on these things.

If we step back and actually have an honest conversation, this is a natural phenomenon. It doesn't exist in a box. You can't put a little grid on a map and say that is exactly where the burn is going to start, stop and end. You're there monitoring the conditions—not saying that on July 10 you're going to burn. You're sitting there with the community and saying that, when the conditions are right, you're ready to go.

It's about empowering that level. That's what can be done. It's about removing that bureaucratic tape. It's about not putting people in positions where they have to take their career into their own hands by doing the right thing.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You said that there needs to be a little more concern for indigenous knowledge. What exactly do you mean, in the specific case of forest fires?

[Dane de Souza]

Thank you.

Indigenous knowledge is very much landscape-based. It's knowing the rivers, trees, rocks and winds—how all of that landscape and ecology play into each other in a localized environment—because you've been there forever. You can see the same thing when you talk to farmers about their land. They know their land. They know every corner of it. They know where the coyote den is, etc. These things all influence how a fire behaves on the land. Indigenous fire stewardship is so rich and deep in knowledge of the landscape and of how these fires behave and will react to certain conditions. It goes back more than 20,000 years, as I mentioned.

That being the case, when you get to the day where the conditions are perfect.... You can tell this by what the land is telling you. For example, I was on a traditional burn with Amy in Rocky Mountain House. I was there with the Banff crew, who are all good friends of mine. They are great firefighters—the best on the planet. We did the same thing we've done at every wildfire I've ever been on in my career. We sat on a tailgate and got a readout from Edmonton saying, “Okay, our fine fuel moisture codes are x, y and z, which gives a readout of this. Our head fire intensity should be this, which means this and this. Does everybody feel safe? Let's get out there.”

What we all did was the exact same thing: We each went to a different corner of that burn plot without talking about it. We picked up some grass, rubbed it in our hands, smelled it, threw it in the air and did that again. Then we came back to the middle. These are indigenous and non-indigenous fire stewards. They're experienced firefighters. It was, “Dane, what's happening in your corner?” “Well, I noticed over there that I'm smelling some moisture on the grass and, with the way the shadows are tracking, I don't think that's really going to dry up and burn until about 2 p.m. or 3 p.m. What do you think?” “Well, over in my corner, it's a bit wind-exposed. You can tell that from the way the land is sloping. You know, this will probably take off, but I don't know if we'll get the energy to go and burn that plot right there.” What did those readouts do for us? Nothing. They just helped with that liability.

This is a landscape-based phenomenon. You need to be experienced. You need to know what you're talking about. You need to understand the landscape, and no one understands it better than those who have been stewarding it long before Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Your time is up, Mr. Trudel.

That's very interesting.

Ms. McPherson, you have the floor.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to all the witnesses. This has been very interesting, and I'm so in awe of some of the testimony brought forward today.

What we're hearing is that, if indigenous knowledge and science had been used, there would have been better management of this forest. From what I understand—I wasn't here for this testimony—there is one person in Parks Canada identified as the indigenous fire expert. I could be wrong on that. However, my understanding, particularly from the testimony you gave, Mr. de Souza, is that it would be very difficult for somebody from one area of the country to represent or have any sort of understanding about other areas of the country.

I'd like your thoughts on that, but I'd also like you to talk a little about how we can decolonize forest protection across Canada and what that would look like.

I'll start with you, Mr. de Souza, because you're in the room. Then I'll pass it on to those who are online.

[Dane de Souza]

I'll start by talking about that individual, because he's a good friend of mine.

That individual used to be Amy, who is a mentor and an idol to me. For me, it's like being with Bryan Trottier on the ice. I'm more of a Darcy Tucker. It's not about that individual having all the knowledge. It's about them having relationships with the people who do have the knowledge. That individual is someone who is remarkable in their ability to transcend borders, languages and landscapes. There are so many indigenous nations, even in the area where I grew up, Moh'kinstsis—Calgary, Alberta. This individual has the talent, skill and ability to make those relationships. It's not about that one individual carrying all the knowledge. It's about that one individual being able to connect.

Could you quickly repeat the second part of the question?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

How do we decolonize firefighting in this country? How does that happen? What are the steps the government needs to take? We recognize that we have a racist, deeply colonized structural system in place. How do we fix that?

[Dane de Souza]

Don't ever start a meeting with me with a land acknowledgement. That's your first step. I don't need your land acknowledgement. I need you to do some darn work. That's where it starts.

It's about acknowledging the truth. We talk about truth and reconciliation. The two truths we reconcile involve land acknowledgements and wearing orange shirts. That's not the truth of my ancestors. That's the truth you've imposed upon us. The truth of my ancestors is this right here. It's a beautiful truth. It's a human truth. Fire stewardship—how we manage and steward the land for the betterment of everyone—that is a truth we can all gather around. We can reconcile. We can take part in it. We have individual obligations to this. It's not your office that has an obligation to this. It's you. The people who live, earn and work in this country have an obligation to amplify, champion and enable that truth.

That's the reconciliation needed here. We talk about decolonization. Decolonization is having a conversation and making relationships, like the individual I just talked about. That's what it's about. It's giving that trust and having the ability to learn from each another.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Dr. Cardinal Christianson, go ahead please.

[Amy Cardinal Christianson]

I can speak specifically to the role of the indigenous fire specialist with Parks Canada. I was in that role as the first one. It was through my manager at the time, Pierre Martel. He felt that it was a huge piece that was missing from the fire management picture at Parks Canada.

I came in and was part of the national fire management division, which is basically a team that provides a national overview for Parks Canada, but then there are also field units that have fire management teams.

What the indigenous fire specialist does is work with people who are in those areas and help to support them with work that they're doing in their local parks. That way it's not one person trying to manage all these complex relationships. It's really that we're trying to support the field units or the parks in doing that work in a good way.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

To follow up, I'd like to get your comments as well on how we would decolonize the wildfire firefighting services across the country.

[Amy Cardinal Christianson]

I know one of the NDP things that you've been a supporter of is the federal firefighting force. What I'd ask you to consider is looking to indigenous people as that group.

I just can't believe sometimes that we're not already doing indigenous fire guardians in Canada. It's such an easy win. It gives people jobs, it gets people out on their territory, it increases the health of people and their landscapes, and it also reduces fire risk. To me, it's something that we can do. Compared to the amount we spend on international folks coming in, it's actually very cheap to do this.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would like to ask my last question of Ms. Gartner.

One of the things we have heard from residents of Jasper is that the economic recovery has been hampered because so many people work in the tourism industry, and many of them weren't able to access EI.

I'd like to hear your perspective on that, and I'd like to hear other steps that the federal government could take to support the people of Jasper right now.

[Lindsey Gartner]

I think that's a really great question. It speaks to how tourist economies can be precarious, and they're very dynamic.

Increasing support for tourist economies to create more stable systems, including reducing the precarity of work and working with associations to try to build more careers in tourism and not be reliant especially on immigration systems that are built for precarity, and instead developing systems that support people to live in a community long term and have that stability, are essential.

On that note, like we're hearing from Dane and Amy here, it's very important that recovery is community-led, and the path forward needs to be owned by the community. That's essential.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We're well over time.

We'll go to a very quick second round—a three-minute round.

Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

A famous German chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, said that laws are like sausages—it's better not to see them made. Politics is not for the squeamish. We are here to ask uncomfortable questions, because we need to get the uncomfortable answers.

The fact is that, at the very beginning of this study, when we had Minister Guilbeault, Parks Canada officials and another minister, Minister Sajjan, they made claims that everything that could be done had been done. They made claims that no stone had been left unturned in the preparations to prepare Jasper for the fire.

It's only through the efforts of members of this committee, particularly the Conservative members of this committee, who have been fighting for additional meetings, fighting to get answers so that Canadians can learn the truth.... We've had excellent witnesses, such as you yourselves and other witnesses, who have come forward with very compelling evidence that this government did not consider indigenous knowledge. They did not consider the knowledge of our forest products associations, and they did not consider the knowledge of foresters like Ken Hodges, who warned this government in 2017 of the risk of fire.

I do take exception when members of the government team.... I know it's uncomfortable for them to have these meetings and to be held accountable, but that's their job—to be held accountable. It's my job to come and ask witnesses to get the truth for Canadians. That's why we're asking these questions.

Mr. de Souza, I'm going to start with you. You've said quite clearly that you think this fire could have been mitigated. Are you aware of any prescribed burns that were cancelled this past year just for Jasper park?

[Dane de Souza]

If you mean in Jasper itself...no. However, I don't work for Jasper National Park.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You were talking about a hundred years ago, looking at photos of Jasper National Park, and there were grasslands. It was not this sea of conifer trees that are prone to wildfire.

Do you think that better forest management, including the indigenous perspective that you spoke about, could have prevented these fires from happening in Jasper, at least as intensely as they did?

[Dane de Souza]

I think that to approach this from the lens of forest management is only to continue all the mistakes that have led up to this, regardless of the governments that have put them forward.

I think stewardship—indigenous fire and land stewardship—is really the lens that we need to approach this with. Management is far too short-sighted. Management is far too susceptible to the whims of the political winds that affect it. Stewardship is an ongoing relationship and practice of stewarding the land so it can steward you.

I think getting to that place in this country through conversations like this is inspiring.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

One thing you did say that really struck me was that you were sickened that we're not talking about Lytton, or Enterprise in the Northwest Territories, which was devastated in 2023, as well as Fort McMurray or Slave Lake. The reason we're talking about this is because it happened in a national park, which is under federal jurisdiction.

I think you're absolutely right. These discussions about protecting our communities from fire are very important.

Do you think that it's a discussion that we just need to wrap up?