Environment Committee on Sept. 20th, 2022

[Jeanette Jackson]

I believe that supports are required. I do think that there needs to be more flexibility. There are a lot of buckets, and if there were a little bit more flexibility with fewer buckets, you might see better resolve. In Holland, there's a very similar thing. They allow each farm to have its own wind farm and feed that back into the utility. There is flexibility in other aspects for them to make up funds on the climate side to feed into those other transition factors.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Vignola, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

My first question will probably result in a written answer from Ms. Jackson, Mr. Ross and Mr. Moreau.

We touched on the importance of research in developing clean technologies. We also talked a lot about solar energy technologies, a field with frequent innovation, as well as wind energy technologies.

A few years ago, though, I heard a lot about geothermal energy. In the past, this was mentioned as a potential solution, especially for the Far North. I hardly hear anything about it these days though, and I am wondering why.

Is there enough research into geothermal energy? What is preventing the people of Quebec and Canada from using geothermal energy?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Vignola, is your question for Mr. Moreau?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, to begin.

[Vincent Moreau]

I am not an expert on geothermal energy, but I can tell you that innovations are still being made in vertical or horizontal geothermal energy. We have members who are innovators in this area. I would say that there is no less interest, but it also depends on the available infrastructure. As to the energy efficiency of all our built heritage, it is a tremendous challenge to transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy forms.

Another energy form that I would like to mention and that we have not talked about much is biomass, that is, all organic materials, including forestry waste. It has tremendous energy potential, even for remote areas that are not connected to a network such as Hydro-Québec or another electricity supplier.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Vignola, would you like someone else to answer?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I would ask Ms. Jackson to answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 30 seconds, please.

[Jeanette Jackson]

I thought you were going to talk about fusion and nuclear, so that's interesting. It's the same thing—infrastructure costs, and there are a few sites that have been defined that could deploy geothermal. On the rest of the research, I think Mr. Ross would probably be the most equipped to respond further.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Ross, maybe you could send in some written comments, but as I said, we'll have you back.

I will go now to Ms. Collins for two and a half minutes.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up with you, Ms. Jackson. You mentioned Lytton, which made me think about the devastating impacts of the climate crisis and how flooding, climate fires and extreme weather are impacting this transition as well. I'm curious to know whether any of the work you've done has looked at how increasingly extreme weather events interact with this transition to a low-carbon economy. I'm thinking in particular of our electricity grids, but do you have any other thoughts on that?

[Jeanette Jackson]

Well, sometimes we're so focused on the here and now that we forget about the importance of adaptation and resiliency. Certainly in B.C. there have been fires and floods. I've spent some time with some different groups across Europe that are making a lot of investments in adaptation, with peat moss and a whole bunch of other opportunities, where we have to really lean in on our adaptation and resiliency with innovation and business models that make it make sense.

So yes, I think it's a “nice to do”. I think the model, both with Écotech and the work that Foresight does from an accelerator and adoption perspective, given some capacity, should be factored into the whole opportunity analysis around clean tech. We have a lot of companies that do it. We funnel them into the clean-tech category just so that we can get them supports, but there's certainly an opportunity to be more diligent. I think insurance companies and other folks might want to weigh in and perhaps even invest in some of those actions as well, but we need a starting point in capacity to do that type of work.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Maybe I'll open it up to you, Mr. Moreau. Do you have anything to add on any of the companies you're working with or on any kind of interaction between that clean-tech development and the impacts of the climate crisis?

[Vincent Moreau]

A lot of companies in the energy efficiency field help companies that are facing energy challenges and want to eliminate bunker fuel, oil or diesel, for example. A lot of companies approach us seeking innovations, to learn about the clean technology ecosystem and to find innovators and solutions. The support provided by Écotech Québec is essential to the ecosystem. If we had more resources and could provide greater support, that would be beneficial.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

You have the floor, Mr. Mazier.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming out here today.

We've heard a lot about the so-called valley of death in the clean-tech industry. There's a lot of money being spent on research and development in clean tech, but we hear that a lot of this technology is failing to be commercialized.

Mr. Moreau and Ms. Jackson, what would you recommend the government do to support the commercialization of clean technology in Canada?

[Jeanette Jackson]

An interesting perspective from someone like me, who runs an accelerator, is that I think we need to be very honest with ourselves about what type of team value proposition, business model and competitive advantage a venture has. If they do check a certain number of boxes, they will get capital. The next tier where they're missing one of those factors is where accelerators like us come in.

You don't want to disrupt a company that is already on its pathway, but if a company can't quite get it, let's be honest: What do we need to have them show to really recommend that government programs lean in and make those investments that will have a higher probability of success? We do a lot of work with our programming to weed out who really has those boxes checked. Remember, regardless of what company you look at that's successful, they're going to pivot along the way. They're going to learn on the way. There's no perfection. But if we have platforms that are rigorous, that are market-, data- and problem-driven, then I think the supports that follow will align with that.

Certainly on the project funding side, that's a little trickier. I would say that the investment needs to be more on domestic adoption opportunities. Those companies that have a perceived valley of death will win through procurement efforts, as opposed to having to worry as much about the venture side. It's a two-sided marketplace.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Mr. Moreau, do you have anything to add to that?

[Vincent Moreau]

Yes, I would say that additional funding is required for entrepreneurs who want their technology to reach maturity, be demonstrated, and then be commercialized. It is always hard to get the last chunk of funding for commercialization. To complete all the stages for approval, certification and standards, in particular, additional highly targeted funding would be beneficial since innovation also has to meet a need, as Ms. Jackson pointed out.

As to venture capital, money is available. What is lacking is private funding. The funding phase also has to be completed so that demonstration projects can reach technological maturity and commercialization. That is the crux of the matter. A lot of projects do not make it that far precisely because they are lacking that extra boost, which is not a huge amount of funding, but is still essential.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you.

At the last committee meeting, I asked the department about its clean growth hub. The hub acts as a one-stop shop for federal clean-tech programs. However, when I asked the department how many clean-tech projects that receive government funding reach commercialization, they stated that “the Hub does not collect information on the number of projects that reach commercialization stage after receiving government funding”.

Do you believe that it would be useful for the government to know how many clean technologies reach commercialization?

[Jeanette Jackson]

We do annual surveys and quarterly surveys, so we actually have a lot of that data. Data is important. It's important to know who's winning and who's doing what. I do think that making decisions and offering programs based on data is important.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Go ahead, Mr. Moreau.

[Vincent Moreau]

I think it is important to have that data, namely, the number of innovations awaiting a lead investor in order to get to the trial stage and, as the case may be, the number of funded innovations that are commercialized.