Evidence of meeting #39 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forecasting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Bill C-241 says that the minister has to make a strategy. In the context of that report, how do you feel about the government buying data that's out of date, can't be updated and is going to be of no use to people anytime in the future?
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
If I could maybe come back to.... I believe the first part was about the recommendations of the report, if I'm not mistaken.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
I'm just curious. It was a scathing report. It's related to flood and drought forecasting. How do you feel about the presentation?
Perhaps you didn't see the exchange. You should certainly go check it out. It was about the lack of information and clarity around how $11.5 million was spent on data that's already out of date, can't be updated and is proprietary to the owner. I'm curious about your thoughts on the recommendations from the environment commissioner.
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
Yes, I can go through my thoughts on the recommendations.
Regarding point 24 of the report, I believe that paragraph 3(3)(c) in my private member's bill would prescribe for the possibility of developing a national system of prevention for flooding and droughts but also the delineation of actual and future plains that could be flooded. This directly comes to the objective of the bill, which is within—I'm sorry; I only know the word in French—
Canada‑wide mapping, which is more reliable and better adapted to climate change.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
My colleague asked you about some Quebec groups. Could you table a list of stakeholders who have publicly supported this legislation in this Parliament? One of my colleagues mentioned agricultural groups. You mentioned that you talked to somebody in Saskatchewan.
Could you table with this committee all of the groups that have publicly supported this legislation?
Liberal
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Could you give us a few examples of who these groups are?
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
Yes. I have Mères au front, which is a climate-related group that is supporting this, as well as a couple of engineering associations that we've also spoken to. If you want more detail, I could table a list.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Thank you, Mr. Leslie.
We will now go to Mr. Malette for five minutes.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much, MP Auguste. I'm appreciative of your time and your efforts in this regard.
I also want to make note of the fact that in the previous iteration of this private member's bill, before it failed to proceed from prorogation, it received support from all parties. Therefore, this clearly is, I would think, on the right course here.
My question now would be for Professor Pomeroy. You mentioned that forecasting systems are currently fragmented across jurisdictions. How would this bill improve coordination while still respecting provincial responsibilities and expertise?
Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
First, I'll outline where we're starting from.
We, as a university group, hosted a meeting of the 13 provincial and territorial flood forecasters with the federal government to explore capabilities. They had never met each other before. That's where we're at right now. We have 13 different wheels being built independently. That coordination, the community of practice, is an immediate win on this to trade best practices and say, “Hey, this worked in Manitoba. Try it in New Brunswick.”
The second point is that the federal government does not do flood forecasting. It does weather forecasting, but its models could be deployed for flood forecasting capabilities. It has not done so, so as not to tread on the provincial responsibilities under the Canadian Constitution, which are for water management and emergency aspects. That's why a bill is required to bring people together.
I think there's reluctance to put out a federal flood forecast like the U.S. would do, because it would tread on these provincial responsibilities and cause confusion. That's why it has to be a co-operative national system.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Madam Chair, I'll be sharing my time with MP Greaves, but I have one more quick question, if I may, for Professor Pomeroy.
This bill recognizes the disproportionate impacts that floods and droughts can have on farmers in rural communities. You mentioned that you are from Saskatchewan.
Could you speak to how improved forecasting in this regard could support the agricultural sector?
Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Yes. I'm trained in agricultural engineering, so it's of great interest to me.
The farmers need to know for how long their fields will be flooded and how large an area will be flooded. If they have advance notice, they can open drains and even cut grid roads to allow flood waters to pass.
It's the same with droughts. If we can move to accurate seasonal forecasting of droughts, that's enough time for farmers to change their plans for the year. This applies in terms of what they're going to seed, what their cattle herd sizes are going to be and whether they need to store extra water in some dugouts, as well as provincial agencies, to deal with their reservoirs.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Good afternoon, colleagues.
Good afternoon, Ms. Auguste.
Thank you for being here today.
Thank you for bringing forward this private member's bill, which speaks to a topic of the utmost importance to many of our communities. As the member of Parliament for Victoria my community, unfortunately, is periodically afflicted by both drought and flooding, so these are experiences with which we are intimately familiar.
In fact, in 2021, our province of British Columbia was afflicted by a series of extreme weather events that had devastating impacts right across BC. The extreme flooding in that year not only cut off my region of greater Victoria from the rest of Vancouver Island, but it was actually severe enough that it cut off the city of Metro Vancouver and the port of Vancouver from the rest of Canada. The economic and social impacts as well as the physical damage of these kinds of events are difficult to overstate, so planning appropriately really does seem to be an item of the greatest urgency for this country and this government.
That being said, could you elaborate on how a national strategy, as outlined in your private member's bill, would help governments, the provinces and other agencies to proactively protect infrastructure in the face of extreme weather events such as flooding?
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
The reality is that each jurisdiction manages different predictions, data collection and archiving technologies. None of them are interoperable. That means that in B.C., you have your way of looking at flood and drought, but it's not easy for you to look at the data from a neighbouring province or from neighbouring municipalities that have the same realities.
You wouldn't be able to exchange that priceless information, because you're not speaking the same language sometimes and you're not using the same models. It's really a way to help with that by being able to say, for example, “This is something we've been through in Quebec and we can help Victoria while it's going through this, because we have now learned from these experiences,” but in order for that to happen, we need to speak the same language and talk about the same things.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Thank you very much, Mr. Greaves.
Thank you, Dr. Auguste and Dr. Pomeroy, for being here with us.
That concludes our first hour.
We are going to suspend briefly to switch the witnesses over. We'll recommence in a couple of minutes.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Thanks, everybody. We are going to start up for our second hour of the environment and sustainable development committee.
We now have witnesses from several federal departments here with us to provide some opening statements and to field questions.
Welcome to all of our witnesses. I'll briefly introduce them.
We have Gemma Boag from the Canada Water Agency, Dr. Aman Deep from the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food, Hieu Vu from the Department of Natural Resources, Kenza El Bied from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and Stephanie Lane, Doris Fortin and Guy Kuate from the Department of the Environment.
I believe we are getting five minutes of opening remarks from Ms. Fortin.
I will pass the floor to you. Thank you very much.
Doris Fortin Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Department of the Environment
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Good morning, members of the committee.
My name is Doris Fortin. I'm the director general of policy, planning and partnerships at the Meteorological Service of Canada, which is part of Environment and Climate Change Canada. I am pleased to be with you today. I am joined by several colleagues, whom the chair has introduced.
Thank you for inviting me to discuss Bill C‑241 with you.
Flooding, as you know, is the most frequent and costly hazard in Canada. In addition to the significant costs incurred by Canadians—insured and non-insured costs from flooding—the Government of Canada has provided up to $230 million annually in post-flood relief between 2016 and 2025.
The bill is being introduced at a time when Canada's governments, at all levels, are working to improve how we support Canadians' resilience and, in doing so, are improving coordination across all of our businesses to enhance the preparedness for, the response to and the recovery from flooding events.
If passed, the bill would require the Minister of the Environment, Climate Change and Nature to develop a national flood and drought forecasting strategy in collaboration with the ministers of Agriculture and Agri-Food, Housing and Infrastructure, Energy and Natural Resources and Public Safety.
The minister will also be required to consult with provincial governments, indigenous governments and other relevant stakeholders, such as representatives from Canadian universities, civil society organizations and industry, particularly the insurance industry.
These consultations are key, as provinces and territories have primary legislative responsibilities for managing water resources within their territories. They are also responsible for land use and flood infrastructure. The federal government's role in this area involves supporting provinces and territories, including facilitating national coordination and providing environmental monitoring data.
For example, the national hydrological service, which is part of the meteorological service of Canada, collects, interprets and disseminates standardized water quantity information in Canada through the national hydrometric program. It does that in collaboration with all 13 provinces and territories. The program is cost-shared, which means that the federal government and the provinces and territories put money towards the program. This program basically acts as Canada's authoritative source for surface-water quantity data for use by all levels of governments and the Canadian public. The data supports flood and drought forecasting, water management and emergency response.
The Canada Water Agency—also a federal department—has a mandate for the improvement of freshwater management in Canada. Through its leadership, it fosters effective collaboration across the federal system, and improved coordination and collaboration with provinces, territories and indigenous people, to proactively address national and regional transboundary freshwater challenges and opportunities.
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada is the national lead for drought monitoring and reporting. It produces monthly drought assessments through the Canadian drought monitor, drawing on existing data sources, including data that the meteorological service of Canada produces from weather forecasting.
We know there are improvements to be made. Reports published by Public Safety Canada have acknowledged that there is a lack of coordination between different levels of government for flood forecasting and that few Canadians are aware of the available data, their personal risk level and the information that could help them mitigate risks.
The bill outlines specific elements that a strategy should include, including an assessment of the need for and benefits of national coordination, new investments and the application of new technologies for flood and drought forecasting. Another required element is an assessment of development opportunities for national flood and drought forecasting.
As proposed, the bill would also require an assessment of the need for modelling to identify properties and infrastructure at risk from floods. The federal government has taken action in related areas through, for example, the flood hazard identification and mapping program and the development of federally identified flood risk areas datasets, as well as collaborative work with academia to develop a national, open-source flood hazard model. The bill would also require preparing a proposal to establish a national hydrological and water resources forecasting service.
In short, through Bill C‑241, the federal government will continue to play its national coordinating role to help fill existing gaps in support of forecasting, while obviously working with the provinces, territories and other relevant stakeholders in this case.
Thank you all. We look forward to your questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Thank you very much, Ms. Fortin.
We will begin with the Conservatives and Mr. Leslie for six minutes, please.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you all for being here.
As the sponsor mentioned, the Canada Water Agency is likely a major player in the outcome of this legislation, should it come to fruition. I'm going to start there.
The government says that more than 20 federal departments and agencies already had freshwater responsibilities prior to your existence, so what exact authority, tool or capability does the Canada Water Agency have that the other 20 do not?
Gemma Boag Director General, Freshwater Policy and Engagement, Canada Water Agency
Thank you for the question.
As we said in the opening remarks, the agency has a mandate to foster coordination and collaboration amongst those departments and agencies. One of the ways we do that is by managing the federal freshwater committee.
I won't go through all of the other functions the agency has, but one of the main areas is delivering what we call the freshwater ecosystem initiatives in eight major basins across the country. The largest program is in the Great Lakes. Out east, there is the Wolastoq or Saint John River, and the St. Lawrence River. We also have Lake of the Woods, Lake Winnipeg, the Mackenzie basin and the Fraser River.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
I'd like to come back to Lake Winnipeg after.
Recognizing that your role is about coordination, if the problem was fragmentation across federal departments, why was the solution to create department number 21 instead of simply making one existing minister more accountable?
Director General, Freshwater Policy and Engagement, Canada Water Agency
In terms of the functions of the agency, one way we are trying to work on building better coordination and collaboration between departments is by bringing them together in a forum like the federal freshwater committee. Also, when we work in those major basins, the agency, for example, brings together multiple federal departments.