Evidence of meeting #46 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was witnesses.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Certainly, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, honourable members. I'm glad that I was here to be heard. I just want to say one thing: all expenses in Westmount—Ville-Marie were accounted for with due diligence.
Thank you.
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
To be sure, my willingness to speak to the newspapers had nothing to do with making political capital, but simply to wake the other 2006 candidates. As my reputation had been tainted by my former party, I wanted to bring light a situation that struck me as irregular. I did my duty as a good citizen. I also did it out of a concern for honesty and integrity, because in a democracy, transparency, fairness and equitability are essential.
Thank you.
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate being able to respond.
First of all, I would like to say that my understanding initially, when this arrangement was being proposed, was that the 60% that would be claimed against that money would be retained by the Conservative fund. Later it was decided it would be available to the riding associations.
Second, I was asked if I had been requested not to respond to the media after this came out in the media. In fact, yes, I did receive a call from someone who told me I should not respond to this question in the media. The person was probably unaware that I was one of the people involved in the media discussion.
Third, when the Conservative Party decided to launch a lawsuit against Elections Canada, Mr. Rivard offered the services of the lawyers of the legal party, because we were initially all cited in the summation in that lawsuit. Eventually the judge decided to remove all but two. But at that point I told him, no, I would not take advantage of the services of the Conservative Party lawyer.
Finally, I would like to add that my financial agent—and I would like to take the occasion to congratulate him—did in fact read the manual.
Finally, I have a suggestion. Whether it be the Conservative Party or any other party, I think this mechanism of a fund by the central party through which all the money is channelled—for example, even the initial $1,000 deposit was made by that fund, the payment of the posters was managed by that fund, and that's why we were not able to claim it—this mechanism whereby candidates delegate, because we did, our authority in this regard to a central fund be re-examined. I think it poses a serious problem with regard to the independence and the accountability of the candidate at the local level.
Finally, I want to thank the chairman, but I must say that after having watched the performance of certain members of this committee I'm in fact really quite worried about the future of our parliamentary institutions.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
12:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, I would like to make one comment about the situation. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I am a public administrator. When a grant is received or a promise from a provincial member, or anything else of this kind, it is often accompanied by a letter confirming the amount of the contribution.
The Conservative Fund sent us money, whether by wire transfer or by cheque—I do not see any difference between the two. If the money had been spent in the riding and the candidate or official agent had control over it, then I think Elections Canada would have accepted the expenses because we would have been the ones to have spent the funds.
I would also like to note that when I looked at the association account, it was at zero, and in a riding like ours, we cannot spend money that we don't have.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
12:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I realize this is not a humorous business we're involved in here this morning, but to try to inject a little bit of humour, I must say it's nice to be back in familiar surroundings.
However, more to the point, I respect the responsibility this committee has been empowered with and the mandate it has been given to look into the matter under discussion. I'm pleased and honoured to have been requested to attend here to explain the role my campaign had during this whole process. I feel I have now had the opportunity to explain exactly what transpired in relation to the Labrador riding and myself. I appreciate the opportunity to do that.
Thank you.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
On future witnesses, based on the motion that's been passed by this committee, if they're not public office-holders or were not involved in the 2006 campaign, do they still have relevance as witnesses?
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
That is not a point of order. It has nothing to do with the proceedings that just occurred.
We will suspend and resume at two o'clock.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Order, please.
We're resuming our hearings on the motion adopted by the committee, which reads:
That the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics investigate the actions of the Conservative Party of Canada during the 2006 election, in relation to which Elections Canada has refused to reimburse Conservative candidates for certain election campaign expenses in order to determine if these actions meet the ethical standards expected of public office-holders.
We had this afternoon scheduled, as you had on the notice, colleagues, three witnesses in this panel. I can indicate to you that Mr. Martelli is here with us. He is the candidate for the riding of Bourassa. We also were to have the candidate for Vancouver East, Elizabeth Pagtakhan, and her official agent, Denny Pagtakhan. I was advised earlier this morning that Ms. Pagtakhan, the candidate, was interfered with by her husband not permitting her to be served with the summons and that Mr. Denny Pagtakhan, the official agent, did not make himself available. The bailiff just could not locate him at his home the number of times he attempted to personally serve the subpoena. So neither of them are here. I have just been informed subsequently by the clerk that Ms. Pagtakhan did in fact ultimately get served with a summons but declined to appear.
So we do have one witness here, Mr. Martelli, and we're going to have Mr. Martelli sworn in. We will take questions from the members.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
If you could just hold that, I'd like to finish.
The witness will be sworn in by the clerk. We will follow the pattern that we had earlier. We will receive questions, and at the end of our question rounds, Mr. Martelli will be given an opportunity to make any final comment he feels is appropriate for the committee.
So I would ask that he be sworn in now, after which time I'm going to hear Mr. Tilson.
August 11th, 2008 / 2 p.m.
Liberato Martelli As an Individual
The evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Thank you.
Now, I believe Mr. Tilson was first.
Mr. Tilson, you had a point of privilege. I'd like to hear it, please.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
It's in response to what you just said, sir, about the two other witnesses not indicating that they would be here.
I can only say that I had my assistant telephone the clerk's office, I believe it was, at least twice, saying that generally speaking when we have committees on Mondays they don't start until 11 o'clock because people have to travel from afar. You and I live in the same area, and you made it, but it was difficult for me to get here by 10 o'clock. I did make it somewhere prior to 11, but I came here; I'm here. We had some witnesses this morning, a whole bunch of witnesses—I don't know how many there were—but we really didn't finish our questioning. I'm just rather annoyed at the process that has been followed, that we have one witness this afternoon.
You must have known on Friday, sir, that these other two witnesses weren't going to appear, and yes, there's some business that's being scheduled, but basically, unless that goes on and on and on, which I hope it doesn't, this afternoon will be a waste. I just consider it poor planning on your part, sir, because you're in charge of these committee meetings, and to arrange for only one witness on a Monday afternoon when we're all prepared to work here until five, somehow you've blown it.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
With respect, Mr. Tilson, I don't hear a point of privilege at all.
And I can tell you that when you have 79 witnesses to contact and schedule, and when you find out about a week and a half ago from at least two of the proposed witnesses that “the party instructed us not to appear before the committee”.... We had two or three people who basically confirmed the same thing--to decline any invitation to appear.
As a consequence, Mr. Tilson, it was going to be a situation in which, with the people who had valid reasons not to be here plus the people who just decided not to come, we would have had hardly any witnesses. The committee did authorize the chair to summon witnesses if it was felt appropriate under the circumstances. Given that I was aware that there appeared to be directives out that people not accept our invitation to appear, those summonses were issued.
Now, I can also say to you, sir, as you know--and I know you're familiar with the rules in this regard--our summonses are not enforceable without going to the House for approval for the committee to engage the Sergeant-at-Arms to bring a witness to the committee. So right now I can tell you, sir, that you are quite right, I don't know how many people we will have for each morning and afternoon session, because I don't know whether they will respect the summonses served on them by the bailiff engaged by the clerk's directorate on the direction of the chair. We may very well have similar situations like that.
It will be up to the committee to have a discussion as to what, if any, further action it cares to take and whether it cares to report to the House and seek to have these people come and explain why. As you know, a number of other committees have recommended that persons who either did things or did not do things before the committee that they should have done be found in contempt of Parliament, without further sanctions.
I was involved in the George Radwanski one, and that was certainly the same situation. We simply found the person in contempt, without further sanctions.
I don't know how that's going to go, sir, but I can tell you that we took every reasonable step and followed the rules and procedures prescribed by the House of Commons and the clerk's directorate to contact people, to give them proper notice, and to have them come before our committee.
The committee will then have to decide, if people do not show, having been summonsed, whether further action is necessary. And I think the committee should prepare itself for that discussion on Thursday, when we deal with future meetings and future witnesses.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Mr. Chairman, I don't accept what you've said, but I do ask that you table whatever evidence you have that a party told witnesses not to come to these hearings.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Those were verbal representations to the clerk. As you know, the chair does not make any communications directly.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON
You said that you had this notice. Mr. Chair, you just said that you had the notice.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Yes, I had the notice from the clerk's report to me, which records the date and who was spoken to, and so on.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Mr. Chairman, I still have the floor. Can we have that report? Those are serious allegations you're making, and you just can't say them unless we know they're true. I'd like to see what documentary evidence.... If you have a report, I think the committee members would like to see the report that says that a party told witnesses not to appear at these hearings.