Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 11th, 2008

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

That's not the case, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I'll deal with that.

Do you have a point of order? What is the basis of--

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

It's procedure, Mr. Chair. It is not true that the chair can wait to hear a point of order, because that simply allows the chair to make a ruling--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

That's debate.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

No, it's procedure. I'm not debating with you; I'm telling you that if the chair were allowed to continue ad infinitum, then the chair could make a ruling that couldn't be challenged by the jury on the opposite side, which would shut down debate. You have to hear a point of order right away. It's procedural. I really do wish you would respect the procedural rules of this House. It's fair.

This is becoming a very dishonest and partisan chamber. You're not even listening to me, Mr. Chair. Perhaps you should listen during your briefings; you're not listening now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We have work to do.

Mr. Wallace is next on a point of order.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I have a clarification based on procedure, which you talked about before you heard anyone else's point of order. You indicated that you expected six witnesses for this morning's panel, and five have showed up. We have an additional witness.

Can I move a motion that we hear from the witness who showed up to fill that spot? You were expecting six to start with, so your argument that we have five and it's going to take all morning so we should proceed.... Can I move a motion to hear Mr. Finley?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you, Mr. Wallace, for that intervention. The witness who is not here is the official agent for Madame Fortier. I'm not sure yet if that person will attend.

In answer to your question, you have the floor on a point of order, and as you know, you are not permitted to move a motion on a point of order.

Thank you very much.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I want to be back on the--

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Martin, please.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is not a point of order. I would simply like to make an intervention about whether or not Mr. Finley should in fact be heard today. I would argue it will be unfair to the witnesses who have been called and scheduled if Mr. Finley is heard. It will also be unfair to us, who spent the weekend getting ready to question a certain group of witnesses we were told would be here.

We very much want to hear from Mr. Finley; I think he's a key witness. But there's an order to things that should roll out. When you have 30 or 40 witnesses, they have to be clustered in such a way that there's a logical roll-out and flow of information. Mr. Finley should be heard from at his convenience, I suppose, but not today. He doesn't get to dictate that he'll be heard by this committee just because he shows up. It's also not fair to the other witnesses, who may be intimidated by Mr. Finley sitting there, frankly. He's a heavyweight with the party.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you. The committee is the master of its proceedings.

I'm going to recognize Mr. Wallace. He would like to move a motion.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I move that this committee adjourn for half an hour; that once it reconvenes we extend the time from 10:30 to 12:30; and that the additional witness to take the place of the witness who did not appear be Mr. Doug Finley of the Conservative Party of Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I think that's very clear. I want to put that question right now. I would like the clerk to call the vote, please. I think it's very straightforward.

(Motion negatived)

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I would ask Mr. Finley and his associate to please withdraw from the table so we can proceed with our other witnesses. Thank you very much.

Order, please.

Mr. Finley, as you know, the committee indicated they wanted to hear you. I think the point has been made that members have to prepare. You were not on today's order paper. I communicated with you twice on Friday that we could not accommodate you today and that Wednesday was the scheduled day. It's on the notice on the website. I also offered some willingness to have you on Thursday.

The committee will likely have further meetings. If none of these dates are available to you for good reason, we can reschedule you for a future hearing date. But the committee right now has decided it wants to proceed with the scheduled witnesses for whom they have prepared their questions.

I would ask you again, sir, to please leave the table so we can proceed with the witnesses.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Chairman, it has been clearly stated to you that Mr. Finley is available today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Yes, thank you. Could you please leave the table?

Sir, I don't know who you are, but you're not in order and I'd like you to leave the table.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

First of all, I already introduced myself to you. My last name is Hamilton, first initial is A. I'm counsel to Mr. Finley.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I need to proceed with the other witnesses, and I'm asking you for the third time to please leave the table so we can proceed with our work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We are resumed.

[An hon. member]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We have witnesses to hear, and I would like at this time to welcome Louise O'Sullivan, Ann Julie Fortier, Mr. Gary Caldwell, Mr. Réjean Fauteux, and Mr. Joe Goudie.

Thank you, and I apologize to all of you for the delay in these proceedings. We will want to move immediately to the questioning.

Mr. Goodyear has another point of order that he would like to make.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

It's basically on procedure. It might in fact be a solution to this problem that we're facing right now. I would like to point out, however, Mr. Chair, that I have a procedural....

Oh, I'm sorry, there's no sound? I'm sorry. I'll wait.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Could someone check Madame Fortier's channel and volume?

Carry on, Mr. Goodyear.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think I may have a solution to the situation.

One, although I see the witness has been forcibly removed, I felt that it was probably a good idea to just let the witness sit there, since you yourself.... No, no, it's a point of order.